The Passover of Y'shua

Comment by James Trimm on January 26, 2010 at 1:10pm

Your calculations are way off. Yeshua kept the passover on the same day he died. Remember, Hebrew days run evening to evening. At evening Yeshua kept Passover, then he want to the garden, was arrested and tried overnight, that afternoon he died... all on the same day.

The Enochian calendar (if it was ever intended as anything but an astronomical calendar) disregards "new moons" and so Yeshua would have been keeping his passover at a totally different time from the Pharisees (several days off).

Comment by jacob on January 27, 2010 at 1:28pm

Modern Hebrew days begin at evening, but Biblical Hebrew days (even in Y'shua's day) began at morning (Gen 1:3-5a), just as modern Hebrew years begin on the seventh month, whereas Biblical Hebrew years begin on the first (Exo 12:2).
This, however, is irrelevent to the point I have made: that according to Luke 24, Y'shua was put to death on the 5th day of the week.

Perhaps you did not get around to reading Luke 24:10-29. It records a conversation between Y'shua and two of His disciples that took place on the 1st day of the week. It must have began sometime not too far off from the END of the day ("when evening was approaching" Luke 24:29). If we choose to accept Luke as Scripture, then we must accept Luke 24:21, which relays that this time (sometime not too far off from the end of the first day of the week) was the third day after Y'shua excecution, which would place His excucution on the 5th day the of the week.

The Enochian calendar use the equinoxes of the sun, and according to this method, in the year 30 CE, Passover was only one day before the Passover on the Pharasaic calendar.

Comment by James Trimm on January 27, 2010 at 2:28pm

You are just piling error on top of error. I guess you can insist 1 plus 3 equals 6 if you can also insist that 1 is really 2 and 3 is really 4. Pile on enough error and you can make anything sound good.

Evening to evening reckoning is clear in the Scriptures:

In creation evening comes before morning in the course of each day (Gen. 1).

Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn
rest, and you shall afflict your souls;
on the ninth day of the month at evening,
from evening to evening, you shall
celebrate your sabbath.

Exod 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day
of the month at evening, you shall eat
unleavened bread, until the twenty-first
day of the month at evening.

A Hebrew day ends with the beginning of EREV (Evening) as shown in Dt.
21:22-23 & Joshua 8:29 where we are told that a man hanged on a tree must
not stay over night but be removed that day (Dt. 21:22-23) so the King of
Ai was hanged and remained "until EREV" (Joshua 8:29).

Also Yeshua was probably crucified in 27 CE:

In the first year of Daryavesh the son of Achashverosh, of the seed of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
in the first year of his reign I Daniel meditated in the books, over the number of the years, whereof the word of YHWH came to Yirmeyah the prophet, that He would accomplish for the desolations of Yerushalayim seventy years.
(Dan. 9:1-2 HRV)

Daniel has been doing some Tanak study. He has been reading Jer. 25:11-12; 29:10. He has read about the 70 year exile.

The reason for a 70 year captivity had been that YHWH was punishing us for having forsaken the Torah. He punished us with the curses of Deut 28-29 and Lev. 26 as the Torah had warned us. The key issue here was that of the violation of the Sabbath of the
Land (Ex. 21:2; 23:11; Lev. 25:2, 20; 26:2, 34; Deut. 15:1)

According to the Torah, if we as a people did not keep the Sabbath of the land every seven years we would be cursed (Lev. 26 esp. verse 34)

And I set my face unto the YHWH Elohim,
to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting,
and sackcloth, and ashes.
And I prayed unto YHWH my Elohim,
and made confession, and said: 'O YHWH,
the great and awful El, who keep covenant
and mercy with them that love You and keep
Your commandments, we have sinned, and have
dealt iniquitously, and have done wickedly,
and have rebelled, and have turned aside from
Your commandments and from Your ordinances;
neither have we hearkened unto Your servants
the prophets, that spoke in Your name to our kings,
our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people
of the land. Unto You, O YHWH, belongs
righteousness, but unto us confusion of face,
as at this day; to the men of Y’hudah, and to
the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, and unto all
Yisra’el, that are near, and that are far off,
through all the countries whither You have
driven them, because they dealt treacherously
with You. O YHWH, to us belongs confusion
of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers,
because we have sinned against You. To YHWH
our Elohim belong compassions and forgivenesses;
for we have rebelled against Him; neither have
we hearkened to the voice of YHWH our Elohim,
to walk in His laws, which He set before us by
His servants the prophets.
Yes, all Yisra’el have transgressed Your Torah,
and have turned aside, so as not to hearken to
Your voice; and so there has been poured out
upon us the curse and the oath that is written in
the Torah of Moshe the servant of Elohim; for we
have sinned against Him.
And He has confirmed His word, which He
spoke against us, and against our judges that
judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil;
so that under the whole heaven has not been
done as has been done upon Yerushalayim.
As it is written in the Torah of Moshe, all this
evil is come upon us; yet have we not entreated
the favour of YHWH our Elohim, that we might
turn from our iniquities, and have discernment in
Your truth. And so YHWH has watched over the
evil, and brought it upon us; for YHWH our
Elohim is righteous in all His works which He has
done, and we have not hearkened to His voice.
And now, O YHWH our Elohim, that have brought
Your people forth out of the land of Egypt with a
mighty hand, and have gotten You renown, as at
this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
O YHWH, according to all Your righteousness,
let Your anger and Your fury, I pray You, be turned
away from Your city Yerushalayim, Your set-apart
mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities
of our fathers, Yerushalayim and Your people are
become a reproach to all that are about us.
Now therefore, O our Elohim, hearken unto the
prayer of Your servant, and to his supplications,
and cause Your face to shine upon Your sanctuary
that is desolate, for YHWH's sake. O my Elohim,
incline Your ear, and hear; open Your eyes, and
behold our desolations, and the city upon which
Your name is called; for we do not present
our supplications before You because of our
righteousness, but because of Your great compassions.
O YHWH, hear, O YHWH, forgive, O YHWH,
attend and do, defer not; for Your own sake,
O my Elohim, because Your name is called upon
Your city and Your people.'
(Dan. 9:3-19 HRV)

Daniel is very concerned. It has been 70 years and he wants to go home! He is a very old man by now. But he has worried because he knows his Torah. He knows that the Torah warns that if Israel still does not repent after the curse is inacted that Israel will have the punishment multiplied by seven (Lev. 26:18) Daniel is hoping that YHWH will not be enacting the next level punishment. For that would mean 70 * 7 or another 490 years!

And while I was speaking, and praying,
and confessing my sin and the sin of my
people Yisra’el, and presenting my supplication
before YHWH my Elohim for the set-apart
mountain of my Elohim; yes, while I was
speaking in prayer, the man Gavri’el, whom
I had seen in the vision at the beginning,
being caused to fly swiftly, approached
close to me about the time of the evening
offering. And he made me to understand,
and talked with me, and said: 'O Daniel,
I am now come forth to make you skilful
of understanding. At the beginning of your
supplications a word went forth, and I am
come to declare it; for you are greatly beloved;
therefore look into the word, and understand
the vision. Seventy weeks are decreed upon
your people and upon your set-apart city, to
finish the transgression, and to make an end
of sin, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal vision and prophecy, and to anoint
the most Set-apart.
(Dan. 9:20-24 HRV)

Daniel learns that there will indeed be at least another 490 years of curses for Israel. The "weeks" here are not seven DAYS but seven YEARS. In fact the Hebrew word here actually just means "seven [somethings]"

Know therefore and discern, that from the
going forth of the word to restore and to
build Yerushalayim unto Messiah, a prince,
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and
two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad
place and moat, but in troublous times.
(Dan. 9:25 HRV)

7 "weeks" here would be 49 years (a Jubilee cycle) plus theeescore and two weeks (3*20+2=62) is 69 "weeks" or 483 years.

But remember we are not counting years here but actual sabbath year cycles which are specific seven year blocks. In other words this is actually a count of how many Sabbath year cycle blocks fall between these two points.

Our starting point is "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" which is Ezra 7:11-16 and gives us a start date of 457 BCE. Between that date and the Messiah 69 sabbath year cycle blocks would fall.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(Dan. 9:26)

Messiah is cut off after ther 62 "weeks" which follow the 7 weeks. This elaboration allows us to see that the division of these two blocks (the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks) was to show that after the 7 weeks "the street shall be built again, and the wall" but the Messiah would not come until after the 62 week block following that.

The Messiah would be "cut off" at that time. This is an idiom meaning that he would be executed. He would not be executed for himself, but for others.

Then the people of a prince destroy Jerusalem after that time.

And he shall make a firm covenant with many
for one week; and in the midst of the week he
shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease;
and upon the wing of detestable things shall be
that which causes appalment; and that until the
extermination wholly determined be poured
out upon that which causes appalment.
(Dan. 9:27 HRV)

Remember there were 490 years or 70 "weeks" but we have so far covered only 483 (or 69 "weeks").

This is because the big test of our trust in YHWH is the Sabbath of the land. This is where Israel SHOWS our trust in YHWH by trusting him to provide. The curse would not end until we reinstitute the sabbath of the land (2Chr. 36:21).

So YHWH in his infinite mercy would send the Messiah seven years BEFORE the 490 years would end to call us to repent and return to Torah in time to reinstitute the sabbath of the land BEFORE the 490 years are over.

The curse will not end until we as a people repent and show that by reinstituting the sabbath of the land. When we do that we will finally kick off the last seven years of the curse we have lived with all of this time.

There is so much to learn from this chapter. Including the nature of the Kingdom offer and the layout of the last seven years. But most importantly is the time that the Messiah would come and be "cut off".

Now if we count 483 years from 457 BCE we get 27 CE (we must add a year because there is no zero point between 1 BCE and 1 CE) Passover occurred on Thursday (by first sliver crescent moon new moon) in 27 CE.

This pinpoints the crucifixion on Thursday April 9th of 27 CE.

We know Yeshua was crucified on a Thursday because we read in Luke 24:21 “it is three days since all these things happen” – This deonstrates a Thursday crucifixion, despite popular theories of either a Friday or a Wednesday crucifixion.. This statement is clearly made during the day on Sunday (the First Day of the Week). Thus if we count backwards using this verse as a basis we find:

Sunday (1st Day of week) is the third day
“since all these things happened”

Saturday (7th Day of week) is the second day
“since all these things happened”

Friday (6th Day of week) is the first day
“since all these things happened”

Thursday (5th Day of week) is the day
“all these things happened”

Now Yeshua’s ministry was a year and a half long (the three year thing is a false Christian tradition) and began with Yeshua’s immersion. Now we know from Luke 3 that Yeshua was about 30 years old at his crucifixion. So if we subtract 31 and ½ from 27 CE we get 6.5, but remember, we must add a year when we cross the BCE/BC line, so we have 7 ½ years.

Many explainations have been offered for the “star of the east”. Among these have been a comet, a super nova or some sort of grouping of planets. The well known astronomer Johannes Kepler proposed a very plausible answer. Kepler was looking through his telescope in Prague on December 17th 1603 observing a conjunction between Saturn and Jupiter in the constekation Pisces at the same longitude. The two planets were so close that they gave the appearance of a single bright star. Amazingly Kepler observed a nova between the two planets outshining both of them. At the time Kepler wrongly believed that the nova was a result of the conjunction of these two planets. This brought to Kepler’s mind that some Jewish astrologers held to a tradition that Messiah would appear at a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in the constellation Pisces. This tradition was recorded by Abarbanel, a Jewish commentator of the 15th century, in his commentary on Daniel. Kepler did some calculations and determined that there had in fact been a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Pisces on Dec. 4th of 7 B.C.E. and that the two planets had been in conjunction twice ealier that year on May 29th and October 3rd. In the third conjunction in Pisces, the planet Mars had actually joined Saturn and Jupiter.

So I think we are safe to say that Yeshua was probably born in 7 BCE and was probably crucified in 27 CE at the age of 31 or 32.

Comment by jacob on January 28, 2010 at 1:56pm

By the "error on top of error", are you refering to the comment I made regarding Gen 1:3-5a and Exo 12:2?
As I recall, I only brought these passages up because I believe you are wrong about when a Biblical day began. Every body is intiled to their own opinion; you have yours, and I have mine. This "error" in your eyes, however, has nothing to do with my previous "error" as it does not assist in verifying nor diproving it ('it' being my point that Y'shua was put to death on the 5th day of the week, an "error" you apparently agree with).
So all things said: you believe Y'shua died in 27CE and I believe he died in 30CE.
Ok.

Comment by James Trimm on January 28, 2010 at 4:53pm

I am referring to compounding the error of the pure Solar Calendar with the error of morning to morning days.

Comment by jacob on January 29, 2010 at 8:41am

Ok, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Here is why I say that Y'shua ate the Passover meal Wednesday evening (the end, not the begining of the 14th):

Exo 12:18 reads:
‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.

If we count the days from the 14th to the 21st, we get eight days

14th = 1
15th = 2
16th = 3
17th = 4
18th = 5
19th = 6
20th = 7
21th = 8

The Torah is clear, however, that we are to keep this feast seven days (Exo 13:6, 23:15, 34:18, Lev 23:6, Num 28:17, & Deu 16:3).

From this alone, one can rightfully reason that the Passover meal must begin at the END of the 14th day of the month.

However, we are given two addition witnesses from Torah that confirm that the Passover begins at the END of the 14th:


1) Deu 16:4
“And no leaven should be seen with you in all your border for seven days, neither should any of the meat which you slaughter in the evening on the first day stay all night until morning.

Notice that it says the meat of the slaughered lamb should not stay "all night until morning". This would mean that the slaughter took place "in the evening of the first day". Is not this "first day" the 14th?


2) Deu 16:6
"...there you slaughter the Passover in the evening, AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN, at the appointed time you came out of Mitsrayim."

Hopefully that is enouph reasons, from Torah, to convince you that Passover is to take place at the END of the 14th.

But you are saying that Y'shua celebrated it the begining of the 14th (assuming the days begin at night) and then was put to death later that same day.

So, either, Y'shua and His disciples ate the Passover at the incorect prescribed time to eat it (which would imply that it does not matter when we cellebrate it) , or they ate it on a different day then the Pharasees.

...or...we must pick and choose which part of the Gospels to accept--like the Muslims.

I you still believe I am in error, please point it out. (Asside from our disagreement on when a Biblical day begins). If more then one, please point them our individually. After all, you are the rabbi and I am here to learn.

By the way, I am not saying a day is morning to morning, I believe it is morning to evening, the sun light hours of the 24 hour day we use today. You cannot deny that a Biblical day is defined as "light" (Gen 1:5a) and last 12 hours (Jn 11:9). You just happen to ALSO believe that there is such a thing and a 24 hours day in the Scriptures. And I understand where you and the majority are coming from because I used to believe the same thing. Now I have a different understanding of "and there was evening and there was morning". How I understand it is this: evening preceded morning because darkness preceded light. It was dark before YHWH said "let there be light". But anyways...I cound be wrong. I am still learning.

Comment by jacob on February 8, 2010 at 6:19pm

How do you figure?

Comment by Mikha El on February 8, 2010 at 8:08pm

Here's where I'm thinking an error could exist in thinking the the year of Yeshua's supreme sacrifice was 27CE. This means the Passover of the year in question could, of the 2 calendars in existence, occur the same "day" or a "day" apart in 30CE or very near there when looking into rocket science level calendar considerations. If we check Daniels prophecy closely we see that Daniel is not stating end your math at exactly the year one arrives at by adding 480 years to 457BCE, 0 considered. Let's check the prophecy once more...

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(Dan. 9:26)


The Messiah would be "cut off" at a time AFTER 3 score and 2 weeks. Daniel isn't informed that our math should stop at 27CE. The Hebrew word for "after" at 9:26 is "achar" It only means what it is translated to english as, "after". Not necessarily immediately after.

Comment by James Trimm on February 9, 2010 at 4:14pm

Full moons are not New Moons, but even if you referred to an astronomical New Moon, that would be the inadvisable dark New Moon, not the first appearance of the small sliver New Moon crescent that was used in the Second Temple Era.

Comment by James Trimm on February 9, 2010 at 4:57pm

1. The full moon is not always on the 15th day of the lunar month (even when the invisible dark new moon is used for the "New Moon".
2. This is especially true when the first appearance of the "New Moon" crescent is used as the first day of the month rather than the invisible dark new moon.

So which day the full moon did or did not occur on, is relevant.

Comment

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