After Life in Judaism and the Scriptures

Comment by Solomon Avar on January 31, 2012 at 12:29pm

It's a parable.
Do you really think Abraham suffers having to reply to the comments of people in hell every day ?

Comment by Solomon Avar on January 31, 2012 at 12:33pm

New International Version (©1984)
I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, all the trees that were well-watered, were consoled in the earth below.
..."'Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. "'This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"(Ezk. 31)

So by your logic, if Eden is in the underworld, then so is Lebanon.
If you want to say that only the trees of Lebanon are in sheol, then I must point out that this can be said of the trees of Eden as well. However, we don't need to guess, for the scriptures clearly tell us that this is a reference to Pharaoh and his kingdom.

Comment by Doug Ri on January 31, 2012 at 9:33pm

The first death is Adam's death - separation from our creator/hell.  - "... on that day you shall surely die" /"we all died in Adam".  I believe we have the time line all wrong - the moment we are conceived we are conceived into Adam's death - the first Adam's death.  Messiah brings us back to Eden and beyond -

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
In order to live one must eat of the tree of life but the tree of life is guarded by a cherubim with a sword that goes every way like a flame - time.  The cherubim is the angel of death that passes over the homes with the blood of the lamb on Passover.

If YHWH saves you, you have eternal life even if your body dies.  
I'll repost about going back to the garden of Eden after this post.

Heaven is beyond time and if you were to try to go the speed where time stops you'd disintegrate before you reached it - you'd burn up (unless you are taken by and clothed in Messiah.

All motion is defined by a relative stillness.  I am sitting still in relation to the car that drove by but if I were to go to the axis of the earth I'd be moving as all the earth is spinning around the axis which is orbiting around the sun which is sitting still in its solar system but the sun is moving in the universe and on and on until we find the ultimate stillness that defines all motion yet is not able to be defined/demonstrated.  You can do something to demonstrate motion but the motion stops and the silence is always there defining motion.

Sound is a motion too.  All sound is defined by silence - everything above or below the line which represents silence in the sound wave picture.  Even if you were to define stillness by a relative motion you'd have to keep going faster and faster until you reached the speed where time stopped everything would change - cease to exist as we know it - the kingdom of YHWH that flesh and blood do not enter.  The things of the creation - laws of physics - speak of the creator.

 

Comment by Doug Ri on January 31, 2012 at 9:34pm

Everything here Messiah traversed in reverse -

In the OT we have 

the tree and the Cherubim with a sword...

the flood and the rainbow

the law and the end of the law - Messiah

First Messiah perfectly kept the law going to temple with his folks - then went back into Egypt before the Mosaic law and commandments 

In the flood it rained 40 days and nights and a raven and dove went up from the ark

In reverse John, the raven, baptized messiah and the holy spirit, the dove came back down - messiah went through the water and into the wilderness 40 days 

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

In order to live one must eat of the tree of life.  It's in Eden guarded by Cherubim with a sword that goes every way like a flame.  Where is this garden?  You'd have to go back in time - it no longer exists as a location on earth.  No matter what direction you go the faster you go the slower time gets - every way like a fame - time keeps us from going back.

The last supper, passover, the angel of death passing over is the Cherubim guarding Eden.

On stage Eden we have Messiah - The 2nd/last Adam, The disciples - the bride of Messiah as Eve, One of you is a devil/the serpent - Judas.

They revisit and undo the original sin - eat in remembrance rather than eat to forget and be like our creator.

Next - Where were Adam and Eve before they ate?  In the garden being tempted.

Where were Messiah and the disciples after they ate?  In the garden of Gethsemane during their time of temptation 

(note - on the mount of olives - olive tree being allegoric to the tree of life

[fig tree - tree of knowledge of good and evil {taking life and death into one's own hands as if you could control your own} - FIGure it out - took one look at Eve's FIGure lol - they covered their figures with fig leaves])

But he takes us back before Eve was formed - 

Adam was put into a deep sleep and his side opened and a helps meet  taken from it

Messiah was put into a deep sleep - death.  His side was pierced and water and blood came out - the bride of Messiah by the spirit, water and blood.

But it's deeper than that - he must be born again and he takes us to heavenly places but alas, we go back before Adam was made.  The host, army, of heaven existed before Adam but here we are at the beginning of the Bible - Won't we go beyond the scriptures if we go any further? - that'd be unholy.

Messiah takes us to heavenly places but there's a battle in heaven - and where is that battle written about?  The book of revelations.

  This is where the beginning meets the end.
copyright 2000 Douglas Ribot 

Comment by Doug Ri on January 31, 2012 at 9:38pm

So the moment you are conceived you died in Adam and went to hell/ separation from eternal life.  If you are saved by Messiah you are brought back in time to the garden of Eden and beyond to eternal life.  You will not be hurt by the second death, the lake of fire, when hell and Adam's death are thrown in the lake of fire

That's how I break it down 

Comment by terry on February 1, 2012 at 5:10am

the parable of the rich man and lazerus was added to luke by the R.C.C. around the yr. 1400 to promote a afterlife beyond the grave.

 

Comment by Solomon Avar on February 1, 2012 at 7:59am

Terry, thanks for your input.
I would like to suggest something to you, though:
if you already believe it's a parable, then acknowledging it as being a genuine parable spoken by Yeshua does not invalidate the truth of soul sleep. If you want to prove that it was added later, I'd be open to that, but even if it proves to be genuine, it does not disprove the Biblical truth that the dead are in fact dead. They don't live on, in any form, they're dead, as the word "dead" implies, and are regularly described as "sleeping."

Comment by Solomon Avar on February 1, 2012 at 8:02am

Indeed, if the parable was a literal story, it would mean that Abraham is constantly suffering in some crazy afterlife, deafened by the cries of 99% of mankind suffering in some Greco-Catholic afterlife; many of his own offspring would be displayed before him in agony, like some twisted theater from Dante's inferno.

Comment by Shamir ben Nadav on February 2, 2012 at 10:36am

Just to preface this I do not believe or endorse all these ideas, there are some that are very credible, I am throwing them out there to discus.  The resurrection of the dead in the Olam Haba along with reincarnation, or the preparing the neshamot or souls for the resurrection, were the common beliefs of man of the first century Jews with the exception of the Sadducees that did/does not believe in an afterlife, as I have understood and read.  Modern Judaism also plays around with this same reincarnation methodology to much of an extent.

 

There are many “Messianic Jews” that state that also say this is what Yeshua taught and believed, listed below.

 

1. Souls reincarnate until they embrace the Truth or time runs out.

2. Liberated souls sleep peacefully awaiting the resurrection.

3. Some souls are called forth for specific tasks from time to time.

4. Many believe that there are eternally Jewish and non-Jewish souls.

5. All Jewish souls were present at Mount Sinai and accepted the Covenant there.

6. Jewish souls do not always incarnate in Jewish bodies.

7. What matters is the here and not, not the afterlife.

 

Do we have verses and ideologies that defend or refute these claims and ideas?

Comment by Solomon Avar on February 2, 2012 at 6:23pm

I want to suggest Kefa, that instead of reincarnations prior to "the resurrection", that there are multiple resurrections, beginning at the time of the Millennial kingdom. The reason the Revelation of John talks about only two resurrections is because it is only concerned with resurrections wherein the resurrected receive immortal bodies, and is not concerned with the resurrections of those who are given renewed mortal bodies.

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