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Trisha Clover
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  • Vancouver, WA
  • United States
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  • Doug Ri
  • James Trimm

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Profile Information

Do you consider yourself a:
Messianic Gentile
Books I consider Canonical:
Tanak (Old Testament), Ketuvim Netzarim (New Testament), The Book of Enoch
Favorite version of Scriptures:
Hebraic Roots Version
About me:
Not sure if all answered questions right, but all I know is that I have left the christian church for good since I found out God did not do away with the law, and in my heart I knew Sabbath was not changed or done away with. I have been scared to think I was taught lies. I am HUNGRY for the TRUTH and every day I pray for my Lord to lead me in the right path. I have family and grandchildren to think about and I pray for all of our eyes to be opened. I need help! I love your videos and teachings.
Marital Status
Married
Music:
Kari Jobe, Paul Wilbur, Jewish, hymns, esp. Scripture put to music
Interests:
Learning the Torah and knowing how to answer every man, photography, Cooking for and pampering people, love to see joy on their faces, taking care and teaching the Scriptures to my grandchildren.
Favorite Television Shows and Movies:
I Survived, Animal Planet, News, True story movies. (variety of subjects)
What is your favorite Book of the Scriptures?
Deuteronomy
What is your favorite verse?
Deuteronomy 6:5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all of your soul, and with all of thy might."
What is your favorite quote? (From Scripture or elsewhere)
"Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7
How did you hear of NazareneSpace?
Going on rabbit trails through Facebook, came across NazareneSpace. :)

Comment Wall (15 comments)

At 6:25pm on January 22, 2012, Doug Ri said…

Just remember - the law is a teacher but your husband/ you are married to Messiah - and the law is only there to teach you about him.
I could never be a member of a Church after the first one I was in because we left all our possessions and shared everything as common and became cultish but the other Churches weren't obedient to even that - Gotta go but tell you more about it later
 

At 6:31pm on January 22, 2012, James Trimm said…
At 8:26pm on January 22, 2012, Trisha Clover said…

James and Doug, I appreciate everything! I am so blessed with this knowledge! Thank you!

At 10:36pm on January 26, 2012, Doug Ri said…

James,
Re: Your link -
"Eventually Elohim allows Babylon to invade Jerusalem and the Jews to be taken into captivity, because of their failure to keep Torah." 
Because they were worshipping false God's in their high places too.  Don't take away from Torah either.
 You have to understand that Messiah fulfilled the law.  The sacrificial system is defunct.  Our creator allowed polygamy but when Messiah came to make the many one it was no longer tolerated and there is no marriage in heaven because the marriage supper of the lamb has already taken place.  We are married to Messiah, not the law.  The law is the handmaid to grace, not husband or lord of it.

At 8:03am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

>You have to understand that Messiah fulfilled the law. 

 

From my Hebraic Roots Commentary to Matthew at

http://nazarenespace.com/page/books-dvds

 

5:17  Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets, I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill.  – This is the only passage from the New Testament which is actually quoted, or more correctly paraphrased, in the Talmud.  In the Talmud a certain Nazarene Judge is cited as having quoted the following phrase from a book called the Nwylgnw) ”The Good News”.

 

            I have not come to take away from the Torah of Moshe

            and I have not come to add to the Torah of Moshe

            (b.Shabbat 116)

 

This passage refers to a Torah command which forbids adding to, or subtracting from, the Torah (Deut. 4:2; 12:32).  The Tanak states clearly that the Torah would never be abolished:

 

...it shall be a statute forever

to their generations.... (Ex. 27:21)

 

...it shall be a statute forever to him

and his seed after him. (Ex. 28:43)

 

...a statute forever... (Ex. 29:28)

 

...it shall be a statute forever to them,

to him and to his seed

throughout their generations. (Ex. 30:21)

 

It is a sign between me

and the children of Israel forever. (Ex. 31:17)

 

There is no shortage of passages in the Torah which specify that the Torah will not be abolished but will be for all generations forever. (For more see: Lev. 6:18, 22; 7:34, 36; 10:9, 15; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 41; 24:3; Num. 10:8; 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19, 23; 19:10 and Deut. 5:29)

 

Moreover the Psalmist writes:

 

Your word is truth from the beginning:

and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever.

(Psalm 119:160)

 

Furthermore the Tanak tells us that the Torah is not to be changed or taken away from:

 

You shall not add to the word

which I command you,

neither shall you diminish a thing from it,

that you may keep the commandments

of YHWH your God which I command you.

(Deut 4:2)

 

Whatever thing I command you,

observe to do it: you shall not add thereto,

nor diminish from it.

(Deut. 12:32)

 

Similarly Paul writes:

 

Do we make the Torah of no effect by trust?

Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah!

(Rom. 3:31)

 

Despite the fact that David was saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:5-8) he loved the Torah and delighted in it (Ps. 119: 97, 113, 163). Paul (Paul) also delighted in the Torah (Rom. 7:22) and called it "holy, just and good." (Rom. 7:12). There is nothing wrong with the Torah that God should want to abolish or destroy it, in fact both the Tenach and the New Scriptures call the Torah "perfect" (Ps. 19:7; James 1:25).

 The Torah is even called in the New Testament "the Torah of Messiah" (Gal. 6:2). To say that the Torah was not forever and is not for all generations, is to call YHWH a liar.

 

Abolish/destroy…fulfill – In Hebrew and Aramaic these are idiomatic expressions.  To “fulfil” the Torah means to keep and teach the Torah according to its true meaning.  To “destroy” the Torah is to teach its meaning in correctly and to violate Torah.  Yeshua came to teach the true meaning of Torah, thus in 5:21f he will teach the true meaning of various commandments of the Torah. 

 

There is a false theology that teaches that “fulfilled” the law means that He fulfilled the law, so we don’t have to.  The problem with this thinking is that Yeshua did not keep the whole law.  Let me explain, I do agree that Yeshua never violated Torah, but he only kept the portions which applied to him.  For example, he never went to be washed after a menstruation period…. Now you might think that is silly, but the reality is that it means a woman cannot say “I do not have to go be washed after my menstruation period anymore because ‘Jesus’ did that for me.” And so the theology that says Yeshua fulfilled the law so we don’t have to falls. 

 

In fact to “fulfill” means “to fill up completely”… now when you fill up your gas tank, do you then discard it?  Of course not!

 

In fact the context of this teaching is:

 

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one yud or one mark will by no means pass from the Torah till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, he will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever does and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

At 8:03am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

>The sacrificial system is defunct. 

 

Paul said that they continue each year as a remembrance (Heb. 10:12) when the Temple is rebuilt lets fire up the alter.

 

Messiah is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world his death had an

effect from the beginning of time and not just from around 32 CE forward. 

 

1. The offerings continued each year as a remembrance (Heb. 11:2-2)

 

2. Paul made offerings at the Temple long after Yeshua's death

(Acts 21:17-26/Num. 6:13-21; Acts 24:17-18 see also Acts 18:18/Num. 6:13-21)

 

3. The offerings will be made at the Millennial Temple.  (Ezek. 43:18-27)

At 8:03am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

>Our creator allowed polygamy but when Messiah came to make

>the many one it was no longer tolerated

 

One of the halachic principles which distinguished the Essenes from the Pharisees (whom the Essenes termed “Wall Builders”) was a principle the Essenes called “Yesod HaB’riah” (The Principle/Foundation of Creation).

 

The Pharisees were divided on the issue of divorce. The House of Shammai allowed

divorce only in the case of an “unclean matter” while the House of Hillel allowed divorce

even if the wife only spoiled a dish, and Akiva stretched this to allow a man to divorce

his wife because he found a prettier one (m.Gittin 9:10)

 

The Essenes said the Pharisees had fallen into a trap of Belial saying:

 

They are caught in…Fornication, by taking two wives

in their lifetime although the Principle of Creation (Yesod HaBriah)

is “male and female He Created them” (Gen. 1:27) and those who

entered the ark “went into the ark two by two” (Gen. 7:9). Concerning

the Leaders it is written “he shall not multiply wives to himself” (Dt. 17:17)

(Damascus Document 4,20-5,2)

 

The Essenes were accusing the Pharisees of effectively practicing polygamy in allowing divorce so easily, and in doing so, violating the Yesod HaBriah.

 

No doubt Messiah is citing Yesod HaBriah (The Principle of Creation) when he has the following halachic debate with a group of Pharisees:

 

19:3 And the P’rushim approached him, and tempted him,

saying, “Is it right for a man to put away his wife for every cause?”

19:4 And he answered and said to them:

"Have you not read that he who made man the beginning,

'made them male and female' (Gen. 1:27)

19:5 And said,

'Wherefore shall a man shall leave his father

and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh' (Gen. 2:24)

19:6 And now then, they are no more two but one flesh

only. What therefore Elohim has joined together man cannot separate."

19:7 But they said,

"And why then did Moshe then command

to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away

if she was not pleasing in his sight?” (Deut. 24:1, 3)

19:8 And he answered them and said,

"Because Moshe on account of the hardness of your hearts,

allowed you to put away your wives,

but from the beginning it was not so.

19:9 And I tell you,

every man that has put away, or shall put away his wife,

except it be for fornication, and takes another,

commits adultery. And whoever takes the divorced also

commits adultery.

(Mt. 19:3-9)

 

Notice that divorce and polygamy equally fall under the violation of the Yesod HaBriah. Neither actually violates the Torah itself, but both violate a halachic principle which is preferred.

 

Notice that Yeshua treats divorce as a last resort, which YHWH does not forbid, but does discourage. YHWH recognized that divorces happen in society and thus the Torah regulates divorce. The Torah does not encourage divorce, and certainly does not find it a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).

 

Polygamy, like divorce, violates the Yesod HaBriah. The Torah does not forbid polygamy, it recognized that polygamy was practiced and thus regulated it. The Torah did not encourage polygamy, and certainly does not find it to be a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).

 

Now imagine a leader in the movement wrote a book encouraging men to divorce their wives because they found prettier women, or because their food was not cooked to suite them. Imagine that the book called this a “shocking freedom” and a blessing even for women. Imagine the leader sends out an email soliciting pretty women to match with these men who are ready to divorce. Imagine he changes the whole focus of his ministry to promoting divorce to find prettier women. What would you expect the Overseers to do?

 

Just as divorcing a wife for a prettier woman violates the Yesod HaBriah, so does Polygamy. While polygamy does not violate the Torah, it does violate the Yesod HaBriah. A leader within the movement who encourages polygamy should be treated just as one who encourages divorcing wives for prettier women, and solicits pretty women to step into the dissolved marriages.

 

I hope this clarifies my position for those who wonder how I can say polygamy is not forbidden by Torah, while labeling leaders who encourage it as wolves among the sheep.

 

The point is that Yeshua taught that Polygamy violated the principle of creation “in the beginning” not just from his time forward, 

At 8:04am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

>We are married to Messiah, not the law. 

 

I think you are expressing a misunderstanding of Romans 7

 

The following is from the Hebraic Roots Commentary to Romans based on

the Hebraic Roots Commentary at

http://nazarenespace.com/page/books-dvds

 

 

7:1 Or do you not know, my brothers, (for I speak to learned ones of the Torah), that the Torah has authority over a man as long as he is alive,

7:2 As a woman who is bound by the Torah to her husband, as long as he is alive. But if her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah from her husband.

7:3 And if, while her husband is alive, she has intercourse with another man, she becomes an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah, and she is not an adulteress if she marries another

 

Paul takes an illustration from Jewish Law.  A woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive.  She cannot marry another as long as he lives (unless he divorces her; she has no right to divorce) until her death.

 

           

7:4  And now, my brothers, you also are dead to the Torah in the body of the Messiah that you might be [married] to another who arose from the place of the dead, that you might bear fruit to Eloah.

 

As far as the Torah is concerned we have died with Messiah

and are freed from our former husband (sin) thus allowing

us to be brides to Messiah. 

 

7:5  For while we were in the flesh, the passions of sins that are in the Torah were working in our members, so that we would bear fruit unto death.

7:6  But now we are brought to an end by the Torah, and we are dead to that which was holding us, that we should serve from now on  in the renewal of the spirit and not in the oldness of the writing.

 

The Torah allows us to be brides either to YHWH or to sin.

Since the Torah now regards us as freed from sin we can

become brides to Messiah.  (See comment to Rom. 5:14-15 & 7:14).

 

7:7  What therefore are we saying?  Is the Torah sin?  Absolutely not!  But I did not learn sin except by the hand of the Torah.  For I had not known covetousness except that the Torah said, Do not covet.

 

Paul is concerned that his reader might misunderstand him and think that the Torah is sin and that therefore misunderstand his illustration as teaching that our previous bridegroom was the Torah which we are freed from in order to be bound to Messiah.  Absolutely not! Paul says.  Sin was our first love and former husband from whom the Torah regards us as being freed, but THE TORAH IS NOT SIN (it simply recognizes that we are married either to sin or Messiah) and since the TORAH IS NOT SIN then the Torah is NOT our former husband and we are NOT freed from Torah to be joined to Messiah.  In fact the Torah is the instrument that allows us to be married to either sin or Messiah.  Without the Torah there is no marriage at all.

 

7:14  For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to sin.

 

This verse is the key to understanding of all of Romans 7-8.  In Romans 7-8 Paul contrasts the Torah with what he calls "the law of sin."  It becomes clear when we compare Rom. 7:14 with 8:4-5, 9 that the "Torah" is "of the spirit" but what Paul calls "the law of sin" is of the flesh.  The "law of sin" is NOT the Torah.

At 8:09am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

>Also you contrast Torah and the Messiah when in reality the Messiah is the Torah incarnate

Actually the Messiah is the Torah incarnate.

Let us begin with Romans 10:4. This is a passage which is so
misunderstood. It appears in the KJV to say that "Christ is the end
of the law". The Aramaic word used for "end" here is SAKA. Back in
1893 when James Murdock S.T.D. (A Christian) translated the Aramaic
Peshitta into English for the first time, he translated this word as
"aim". He noted the original Aramaic word in the margin and further
defined it "end, scope, summary". This Aramaic word is used in the
Rabbinic literature to mean "number" "sum" or "total". In the
Babylonian Talmud this word is used as follows "…the SUM of pupils for
a teacher in the primary class is twenty five" (b.Bat. 21a) The root
verb for this Aramaic noun means "to calculate, count, sum up" or "to
look out for, to hope for".

With this Aramaic word, Paul is saying, not that the Messiah is the
TERMINATION of the Torah, but that Messiah is the aim, goal, scope,
summary, number, total and sum of the Torah! Paul is saying that the
Messiah *IS* the Torah. Messiah is the SUM of the Torah.

Rom 10:5 then continues with:

"For Moses thus wrote of the righteousness that is by the Torah that
`he who does these will live by them.'(Lev. 18:5)"

Remember now, Paul has just said that the Messiah is the sum of the
Torah, and now he is quoting the Torah to prove that "life" comes from
the Torah.

Then in Rom. 10:6-8 Paul continues:

"And of the righteousness that is by trust, he thus says: `Do not say
in your heart: who has ascended to heaven' (Deut. 30:12) and brought
down the Messiah? `And who has descended' to the depth of She'ol `and
brought up' (Deut. 13:13) the Messiah from among the dead? But what
does it say? `The answer is near to you, to your mouth and to your
heart,' (Deut. 30:14) which is the word of trust that we proclaim"

Now Christian commentators have taken Paul to be contrasting "the
righteousness that is by the Torah" (Rom. 10:5) with "the
righteousness that is by faith" (Rom. 10:6) to prove that Messiah is
the "end"/"termination" of the Law as stated in Rom. 10:4.

At 8:11am on January 27, 2012, James Trimm said…

There are several problems with this interpretation.

To begin with, we have already shown that Paul's point in Rom. 10:4 is
not that Messiah is the termination of the law, but that Messiah is
the goal and sum of the Torah.

Secondly Rom. 10:5 and Rom 10:6f both quote passages from the Torah to
prove their points.

Thirdly, these commentators totally mangle the point Paul is making in
Rom. 10:6-8.

When Paul was teaching the Bereans in Acts 17, we are told that they
checked "the Scriptures" to see if what Paul said could be found
there, and Paul said they were more noble than others he had toaght,
for doing this. Now the only Scriptures they had at the time were
those of the Tanak ("Old Testament") so Paul would look to the
passages he cites from the Tanak to see that we are applying his words
accurately as they are in the Tanak.

So lets be good Bereans and look at the portion of Torah Paul actually
quotes in Rom. 10:6-8, see what it actually says in context, and see
how Paul is using it. Paul is quoting from Deut. 30:12-14. To get
some context we will begin in verse 9 and take the quote through verse 16:

9 And YHWH your Elohim will make you over-abundant in all the work of
your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle,
and in the fruit of your land, for good; for YHWH will again rejoice
over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers,
10 If you shall hearken to the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to keep His
commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the
Torah; if you turn unto HYWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with
all your soul.
11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too
hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say: `Who shall go up for us
to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may
do it?'
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should says: `Who shall go
over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it,
that we may do it?'
14 But the word if very near unto you, in your mouth, and in your
heart, that you may do it.
15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil,
16 In that I command you this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in
His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statues and His
ordinances; then you shall live and multiply, and YHWH your Elohim
shall bless you in the land where you go in to possess it.
(Deut. 30:9-16)


Now the first and most important point is that in Deut. 30:12-13 it is
the Torah that we do not have to have brought down to us, but in
Paul's citations in Rom. 10:6-7 it is the "Messiah" who does not have
to be brought down to us. Paul is applying his logic that Messiah is
the sum of the Torah from Rom. 10:4 (thus reaffirming that we are
correct in our understanding of SAKA in Rom. 10:4).

Paul here is being influenced by the Apocryphal book of Baruch which paraphrases Deut. 30:12-13 saying:

29 Who has gone up into heaven, and taken her [wisdom]
and brought her down from the clouds?
30 Who has gone over the sea, and found her,
and will buy her for pure gold?
(Baruch 3:29-30)

Then a few lines later Baruch writes:

37 Afterward she appeared upon earth and lived among men.
4:1 She is the book of the commandments of Elohim,
and the Torah that endures forever.
All who hold fast will live,
and those who forsake her fast will die.
(Baruch 3:29-30)

In Baruch that which is brought down from heaven in Deut. 30:12-13 is personified Wisdom (compare 1Cor. 1:24 ) which is identified with an incarnation of the Torah itself having come down to earth to dwell with men.

Moreover, when Paul says "the answer is near to you, to your mouth,
and to your heart, which is the word of trust that we proclaim" (Rom.
10:8) Deut. Says "But the WORD is very near unto you, in your mouth
and in your heart, that you may do it" (Deut. 30:14). So the "answer"
and the "word of trust/faith" in Rom. 10:8 is the "word" in Deut.
30:14, but in Deut. 30:14 that "word" is CLEARLY the Torah! In other
words Rom. 10:8 might be understood "the TORAH is near to you, to your
mouth, and to your heart, which is the TORAH of trust/faith that we
proclaim".

Fourth, we find that Deut. 30:15-16 parallel the meaning of Lev. 18:5
so that we can see that Paul is citing these two passages together,
not because he is contrasting them, but because they teach the same
thing!

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