"I'm sort of new to Ignatious and these early bishops (and Polycarp for that matter). I was wondering if writings of true believers who survived the 70 ad destruction exist and what happened to the 7 "lamp stands"."
"What happened between all the so called early church fathers like Polycarp and the apostles?
I'm in a debate with a full preterist. I was thinking because none of the early christians who survived the temple destruction in 70 AD believed…"
"Bob Miller,You wrote
"I don't find proof of your claim about the meaning of generation in the NT being different than in the OT."I never made that claim.
I may or may not be wrong about the 2 possible ways to interpret the word…"
" “generation” (Greek genea) as used in the New Testament is most often used in the New Testament in a qualitative (people of the same kind) not quantitative (people of the same time) sense.You only win that one and others…"
"Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of…"
Tanak (Old Testament), Ketuvim Netzarim (New Testament)
truth, edible and medicinal plants, animals, farming,
What is your favorite Book of the Scriptures?
What is your favorite verse?
Judges 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honor God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
I was going to share about the community I was in as an example of something but I forget what it was.
I was raised without the law but 17 I became a believer and started taking the sabbath day to rest. I wasn't part of a church the first 3 years I believed but it was a day I did no work and when I could I'dwalk in the fields by myself. Fallen man only made it to the 7th day and YHWH rested and Adam and Eve ate and YHWH came back but there's another day - if you make a bicycle and it takes 7 days and you rest you are not going to make a bicycle again but ride it. The 8th day is the eternal reign of Messiah. Circumcision is on the 8th day cause Adam and Eve were put out of Eden and cut off from eternal life after the 7th day. It's supposed to make us seek the creator in our youth - something is missing related to creation. I wrote a poem about it once called Phantom Limb.
A lot of people have tried to vex me about keeping the law and make me sin conscious but it doesn't work any more. I don't work on saturday and I go to my parents for passover and haven't eaten traif since I was a youth but I don't know much about the deeper truth of the other holidays and never tried to keep them and the only reason I want to learn about them is so I can understand what they have to do with Messiah.
Meanwhile more important than not lifting weight or working is confessing my sins so I can enter into YHWH's rest for if I have unconfessed sin on the sabbath day what joy is there?
The whole backward walk I posted about, the last/passover supper was a fulfillment of passover (the entire law was fulfilled) and I believe satan was bound at the cross and the thousand years is not literal but symbolic and satan will be loosed for the tribulation, for starters to rule the outward form of church. I wrote a parable about it las time I was injured by a pastor in a men's bible study if you're interested.
I'm gonna check my e mail and then hit the hay. Nice meeting you, Later Doug
5:17 Think not that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets, I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill. – This is the only passage from the New Testament which is actually quoted, or more correctly paraphrased, in the Talmud. In the Talmud a certain Nazarene Judge is cited as having quoted the following phrase from a book called the Nwylgnw) ”The Good News”.
I have not come to take away from the Torah of Moshe
and I have not come to add to the Torah of Moshe
This passage refers to a Torah command which forbids adding to, or subtracting from, the Torah (Deut. 4:2; 12:32). The Tanak states clearly that the Torah would never be abolished:
...it shall be a statute forever
to their generations.... (Ex. 27:21)
...it shall be a statute forever to him
and his seed after him. (Ex. 28:43)
...a statute forever... (Ex. 29:28)
...it shall be a statute forever to them,
to him and to his seed
throughout their generations. (Ex. 30:21)
It is a sign between me
and the children of Israel forever. (Ex. 31:17)
There is no shortage of passages in the Torah which specify that the Torah will not be abolished but will be for all generations forever. (For more see: Lev. 6:18, 22; 7:34, 36; 10:9, 15; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 41; 24:3; Num. 10:8; 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19, 23; 19:10 and Deut. 5:29)
and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever.
Furthermore the Tanak tells us that the Torah is not to be changed or taken away from:
You shall not add to the word
which I command you,
neither shall you diminish a thing from it,
that you may keep the commandments
of YHWH your God which I command you.
Whatever thing I command you,
observe to do it: you shall not add thereto,
nor diminish from it.
Similarly Paul writes:
Do we make the Torah of no effect by trust?
Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah!
Despite the fact that David was saved by faith alone (Rom. 4:5-8) he loved the Torah and delighted in it (Ps. 119: 97, 113, 163). Paul (Paul) also delighted in the Torah (Rom. 7:22) and called it "holy, just and good." (Rom. 7:12). There is nothing wrong with the Torah that God should want to abolish or destroy it, in fact both the Tenach and the New Scriptures call the Torah "perfect" (Ps. 19:7; James 1:25).
The Torah is even called in the New Testament "the Torah of Messiah" (Gal. 6:2). To say that the Torah was not forever and is not for all generations, is to call YHWH a liar.
Abolish/destroy…fulfill – In Hebrew and Aramaic these are idiomatic expressions. To “fulfil” the Torah means to keep and teach the Torah according to its true meaning. To “destroy” the Torah is to teach its meaning in correctly and to violate Torah. Yeshua came to teach the true meaning of Torah, thus in 5:21f he will teach the true meaning of various commandments of the Torah.
There is a false theology that teaches that “fulfilled” the law means that He fulfilled the law, so we don’t have to. The problem with this thinking is that Yeshua did not keep the whole law. Let me explain, I do agree that Yeshua never violated Torah, but he only kept the portions which applied to him. For example, he never went to be washed after a menstruation period…. Now you might think that is silly, but the reality is that it means a woman cannot say “I do not have to go be washed after my menstruation period anymore because ‘Jesus’ did that for me.” And so the theology that says Yeshua fulfilled the law so we don’t have to falls.
In fact to “fulfill” means “to fill up completely”… now when you fill up your gas tank, do you then discard it? Of course not!
In fact the context of this teaching is:
"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one yud or one mark will by no means pass from the Torah till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, he will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever does and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
>Our creator allowed polygamy but when Messiah came to make
>the many one it was no longer tolerated
One of the halachic principles which distinguished the Essenes from the Pharisees (whom the Essenes termed “Wall Builders”) was a principle the Essenes called “Yesod HaB’riah” (The Principle/Foundation of Creation).
The Pharisees were divided on the issue of divorce. The House of Shammai allowed
divorce only in the case of an “unclean matter” while the House of Hillel allowed divorce
even if the wife only spoiled a dish, and Akiva stretched this to allow a man to divorce
his wife because he found a prettier one (m.Gittin 9:10)
The Essenes said the Pharisees had fallen into a trap of Belial saying:
They are caught in…Fornication, by taking two wives
in their lifetime although the Principle of Creation (Yesod HaBriah)
is “male and female He Created them” (Gen. 1:27) and those who
entered the ark “went into the ark two by two” (Gen. 7:9). Concerning
the Leaders it is written “he shall not multiply wives to himself” (Dt. 17:17)
(Damascus Document 4,20-5,2)
The Essenes were accusing the Pharisees of effectively practicing polygamy in allowing divorce so easily, and in doing so, violating the Yesod HaBriah.
No doubt Messiah is citing Yesod HaBriah (The Principle of Creation) when he has the following halachic debate with a group of Pharisees:
19:3 And the P’rushim approached him, and tempted him,
saying, “Is it right for a man to put away his wife for every cause?”
19:4 And he answered and said to them:
"Have you not read that he who made man the beginning,
'made them male and female' (Gen. 1:27)
19:5 And said,
'Wherefore shall a man shall leave his father
and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh' (Gen. 2:24)
19:6 And now then, they are no more two but one flesh
only. What therefore Elohim has joined together man cannot separate."
19:7 But they said,
"And why then did Moshe then command
to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away
if she was not pleasing in his sight?” (Deut. 24:1, 3)
19:8 And he answered them and said,
"Because Moshe on account of the hardness of your hearts,
allowed you to put away your wives,
but from the beginning it was not so.
19:9 And I tell you,
every man that has put away, or shall put away his wife,
except it be for fornication, and takes another,
commits adultery. And whoever takes the divorced also
Notice that divorce and polygamy equally fall under the violation of the Yesod HaBriah. Neither actually violates the Torah itself, but both violate a halachic principle which is preferred.
Notice that Yeshua treats divorce as a last resort, which YHWH does not forbid, but does discourage. YHWH recognized that divorces happen in society and thus the Torah regulates divorce. The Torah does not encourage divorce, and certainly does not find it a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).
Polygamy, like divorce, violates the Yesod HaBriah. The Torah does not forbid polygamy, it recognized that polygamy was practiced and thus regulated it. The Torah did not encourage polygamy, and certainly does not find it to be a blessing, because it violates the Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation).
Now imagine a leader in the movement wrote a book encouraging men to divorce their wives because they found prettier women, or because their food was not cooked to suite them. Imagine that the book called this a “shocking freedom” and a blessing even for women. Imagine the leader sends out an email soliciting pretty women to match with these men who are ready to divorce. Imagine he changes the whole focus of his ministry to promoting divorce to find prettier women. What would you expect the Overseers to do?
Just as divorcing a wife for a prettier woman violates the Yesod HaBriah, so does Polygamy. While polygamy does not violate the Torah, it does violate the Yesod HaBriah. A leader within the movement who encourages polygamy should be treated just as one who encourages divorcing wives for prettier women, and solicits pretty women to step into the dissolved marriages.
I hope this clarifies my position for those who wonder how I can say polygamy is not forbidden by Torah, while labeling leaders who encourage it as wolves among the sheep.
The point is that Yeshua taught that Polygamy violated the principle of creation “in the beginning” not just from his time forward,
7:1 Or do you not know, my brothers, (for I speak to learned ones of the Torah), that the Torah has authority over a man as long as he is alive,
7:2 As a woman who is bound by the Torah to her husband, as long as he is alive. But if her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah from her husband.
7:3 And if, while her husband is alive, she has intercourse with another man, she becomes an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah, and she is not an adulteress if she marries another
Paul takes an illustration from Jewish Law. A woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive. She cannot marry another as long as he lives (unless he divorces her; she has no right to divorce) until her death.
7:4 And now, my brothers, you also are dead to the Torah in the body of the Messiah that you might be [married] to another who arose from the place of the dead, that you might bear fruit to Eloah.
As far as the Torah is concerned we have died with Messiah
and are freed from our former husband (sin) thus allowing
7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the passions of sins that are in the Torah were working in our members, so that we would bear fruit unto death.
7:6 But now we are brought to an end by the Torah, and we are dead to that which was holding us, that we should serve from now on in the renewal of the spirit and not in the oldness of the writing.
The Torah allows us to be brides either to YHWH or to sin.
Since the Torah now regards us as freed from sin we can
become brides to Messiah. (See comment to Rom. 5:14-15 & 7:14).
7:7 What therefore are we saying? Is the Torah sin? Absolutely not! But I did not learn sin except by the hand of the Torah. For I had not known covetousness except that the Torah said, Do not covet.
Paul is concerned that his reader might misunderstand him and think that the Torah is sin and that therefore misunderstand his illustration as teaching that our previous bridegroom was the Torah which we are freed from in order to be bound to Messiah. Absolutely not! Paul says. Sin was our first love and former husband from whom the Torah regards us as being freed, but THE TORAH IS NOT SIN (it simply recognizes that we are married either to sin or Messiah) and since the TORAH IS NOT SIN then the Torah is NOT our former husband and we are NOT freed from Torah to be joined to Messiah. In fact the Torah is the instrument that allows us to be married to either sin or Messiah. Without the Torah there is no marriage at all.
7:14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit: but I am of the flesh, and I am sold to sin.
This verse is the key to understanding of all of Romans 7-8. In Romans 7-8 Paul contrasts the Torah with what he calls "the law of sin." It becomes clear when we compare Rom. 7:14 with 8:4-5, 9 that the "Torah" is "of the spirit" but what Paul calls "the law of sin" is of the flesh. The "law of sin" is NOT the Torah.