What can we learn from Rabbinic Chasidic Judaism?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 27, 2010 at 11:27pm

I think some may have missed my point in this paper.

There are two Jewish groups called "Chasidm".

There is the ancient group from the time of the Maccabees out of which Phariseeism, and by extension Esseneism. Their root teaching was that which Phariseeism was supposed to be rooted, the teaching of Antigones of Soko that one does not keep Torah in order to earn anything, one is not "under the law" but "UNDER CHESED".

I think this was the root teaching of the Nazarenes as well, a restoration of this ancient sect of Chasidism.

There is also a modern Rabbinic group called "Chasidim" which were founded in the 1700's and which themselves seek to restore the ancient Chasidim.

The point is that there is a parallel between Nazarene Judaism and modern Chasidic Judaism in that both are intended as a return to the Chasidim of the Maccabean period.

This helps us understand what Nazarene Judaism was all about.

The discussion I created was intended to say, "What can we learn from looking at the Rabbinic attempt to restore Chasidic Judaism?"

Here are some of my thoughts:

>1. Revival:

Nazarene Judaism is absolutely a revival and a "Restoration". Much of the Western Christian world is secularizing. We should also seek to lift moral and religious observance through Nazarene teachings.


>2. Piety:

Nazarene Judaism promotes non-selective Torah Observance.

>3. Refinement:

Nazarene Judaism maintains that we should be conformed to the image of Messiah which is the Image of Elohim after which we were created. We teach growing in maturity (G'MIRA) in Messiah.

>4. Demystification:

I would maintain that "the esoteric teachings of Kabbalah" are infused in the Ketuvim Netzarim ("New Testament") and can be made understandable to everyone. I would also agree that this understanding is meant to help refine a person, as well as adding depth and vigor to one's ritual observation. It is centered on the concept of understanding better the image of Elohim from which we were created and to which we are to be conformed.

But all of us, with open faces, behold the magnificence of YHWH as in a mirror, and we are being changed into that likeness from glory to glory as by the Spirit of YHWH.
(2Cor. 3:18) see 1Cor. 13:12; Ex. 33:18-34:8; 1Cor. 11:7

And from the first he knew he knew them and marked them out [to become] in the likeness of the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brothers.
(Rom. 8:29)

And put on the newness that is renewed by knowledge, in the likeness of his Creator.
(Col. 3:10)

And like we have worn the likeness of the one who is from the dust, thus we will wear the likeness of the one who is from heaven.
(1Cor. 15:49)

A process that ultimately manifests itself through the nine manifestations of the Ruach (1Cor. 12).
I think some may have missed my point in this paper.

There are two Jewish groups called "Chasidm".

There is the ancient group from the time of the Maccabees out of which Phariseeism, and by extension Esseneism. Their root teaching was that which Phariseeism was supposed to be rooted, the teaching of Antigones of Soko that one does not keep Torah in order to earn anything, one is not "under the law" but "UNDER CHESED".

I think this was the root teaching of the Nazarenes as well, a restoration of this ancient sect of Chasidism.

There is also a modern Rabbinic group called "Chasidim" which were founded in the 1700's and which themselves seek to restore the ancient Chasidim.

The point is that there is a parallel between Nazarene Judaism and modern Chasidic Judaism in that both are intended as a return to the Chasidim of the Maccabean period.

This helps us understand what Nazarene Judaism was all about.

The discussion I created was intended to say, "What can we learn from looking at the Rabbinic attempt to restore Chasidic Judaism?"

Here are some of my thoughts:

>1. Revival:

Nazarene Judaism is absolutely a revival and a "Restoration". Much of the Western Christian world is secularizing. We should also seek to lift moral and religious observance through Nazarene teachings.


>2. Piety:

Nazarene Judaism promotes non-selective Torah Observance.

>3. Refinement:

Nazarene Judaism maintains that we should be conformed to the image of Messiah which is the Image of Elohim after which we were created. We teach growing in maturity (G'MIRA) in Messiah.

>4. Demystification:

I would maintain that "the esoteric teachings of Kabbalah" are infused in the Ketuvim Netzarim ("New Testament") and can be made understandable to everyone. I would also agree that this understanding is meant to help refine a person, as well as adding depth and vigor to one's ritual observation. It is centered on the concept of understanding better the image of Elohim from which we were created and to which we are to be conformed.

But all of us, with open faces, behold the magnificence of YHWH as in a mirror, and we are being changed into that likeness from glory to glory as by the Spirit of YHWH.
(2Cor. 3:18) see 1Cor. 13:12; Ex. 33:18-34:8; 1Cor. 11:7

And from the first he knew he knew them and marked them out [to become] in the likeness of the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn of many brothers.
(Rom. 8:29)

And put on the newness that is renewed by knowledge, in the likeness of his Creator.
(Col. 3:10)

And like we have worn the likeness of the one who is from the dust, thus we will wear the likeness of the one who is from heaven.
(1Cor. 15:49)

A process that ultimately manifests itself through the nine manifestations of the Ruach (1Cor. 12).

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 27, 2010 at 11:44pm

We do not observe Torah in order to earn a place in the World to Come.

We observe the Torah as DEVEKUT (communion) with YHWH.





Bat Tzyion said:

According to 'some' Noachide halacha, the Gentile is NOT required to keep the seventh day:

http://www.asknoah.org/HTML/seventh_day.html

Now this does not mean that in the first century, there weren't Gentiles who wished to
embrace Nazarene Judaism and convert to become a Jew and/or that they wished
to learn about the Torah on the sabbath and attended shul with the Nazarenes, as
I believe they did.

I don't see in the NT where it says that the Gentiles absolutely MUST observe
the 7th day sabbath inorder to have a share in the world to come. There is one Torah
for the Jew and Gentile. The Jew observes that which was given him and the Gentile
can decide or NOT to keep the Torah that the Jew keeps and if the Gentile
sojourns with the Jew, he does not necessarily have to keep the whole Torah
that the Jew keeps, because when a Gentile decides to keep the whole Torah,
then he is no longer a Gentile but a Jew. There is One Torah for Jew and Gentile
and this does not mean that the Gentile HAS TO or is OBLIGATED to keep the
entire Torah as I see taught often in Nazarene and Messianic
Israel circles.

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 28, 2010 at 12:02am

This is simply not true, what I maintain is that a person who sees the Torah as bondage to be delivered from has rejected the Torah, and since the Messiah is the Torah incarnate, they therefore, without realizing it, see the Messiah as bondage from which they wish deliverance. YHWH respects their freewill and will not consign them to bondage that they wish deliverance from, He will let them be free of the Messiah, and thus absent salvation.

The Noachide Law issue is UNRELATED. According to my understanding of Scripture, the word Gentile refers to a non-Jew, and the term Jew refers to one who follows the one true faith "Judaism". Asking whether Gentiles need to observe Torah, then is like asking if Communists in Cube must observe the US Bill of Rights. By definition Gentiles are those who chose not to follow the Torah, since by definition Jews are those who chose to follow Torah.

So your issue from our perspectives like asking if one who has chosen not to follow the Torah must follow the Torah,it is essentially a non-question. It is like asking if someone who has chosen not to go to the movies needs to watch the movie.

The Laws of Noach from our perspective are just the first commandments that must be learned while on the path to learning the whole Torah.





Bat Tzyion said:

I have no problem with observing Torah because we love YHWH.
I have a problem with you teaching that Gentiles MUST keep Torah, or they are considered ANTI-MESSIAH
and defining them as lost. I could find lots and lots and lots of slander towards Gentiles here at Nazarenespace due to your teachings here at Nazarenespace that mislead many that Gentiles MUST observe
all of the Torah, or they are wicked and evil. Gentiles are NOT required to keep the whole Torah
to be grafted into Messiah Yahushua period.





James Trimm said:

We do not observe Torah in order to earn a place in the World to Come.

We observe the Torah as DEVEKUT (communion) with YHWH.

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 28, 2010 at 12:24am

That was non responsive.



Bat Tzyion said:

Actually, Gentiles who accept Yahushua but decide not to convert to Judaism are not lost.
They miss out on blessings yes, but they are not lost.
You know, whenever you get stuck, you start spewing a bunch of junk and stupid comparisons.
You are the one asking Gentiles to observe the Torah when you state that if they reject
the Torah, they are evil and anomos and anti Christ!
And no, Gentiles by definition are NOT those who choose NOT to observe Torah, as there
are PLENTY of Gentile on this earth James who KEEP Noachide Torah.
My issue from your perspective is like asking if one who has chosen not to follow the Torah must
follow the Torah? No, my issue with your theology is that you are teaching that Gentiles
are wicked and anti-Messiah and anomos if they DO NOT keep the whole Torah.
The Laws of Noach are the foundation for Gentiles to keep and IF they want more, they decide to
keep more, but are found perfectly righteous if they decide NOT to convert to Judaism.
However, your teaching is that there is no choice for Gentiles, if they reject the rest
of the Torah after Noachide, then they in your theology are called anti-Messiah, anomos,
which is extremely erroneous and very rude.
Also, if you can not share without your twisting comparisons, don't reply, as you
are just trying to confuse the issue by deflecting the conversation intentionally.
Most Gentiles do not know that Yahushua was a Torah observant Jew.
They need to be taught the laws that belong to the Gentile and then offered
conversion to become a Jew, if that is what they want.
When a Gentile is taught to keep the Noachide laws, it is not assumed
automatically that they will keep the whole Torah at all and never was,
as it is their option, but your theology just says to 'remove that option'
from the Gentile and demands they become a Jew or else they are anomos.
You know, HaSatan wanted to remove free agency as well and demand everyone
comply or they had no salvation as well and he did not get his way.
All people decide on their own what instructions they will keep or not keep
and remaining a Gentile under Noachide Laws and being grafted into Yahushua
is perfectly acceptable to Elohim.





James Trimm said:

This is simply not true, what I maintain is that a person who sees the Torah as bondage to be delivered from has rejected the Torah, and since the Messiah is the Torah incarnate, they therefore, without realizing it, see the Messiah as bondage from which they wish deliverance. YHWH respects their freewill and will not consign them to bondage that they wish deliverance from, He will let them be free of the Messiah, and thus absent salvation.

The Noachide Law issue is UNRELATED. According to my understanding of Scripture, the word Gentile refers to a non-Jew, and the term Jew refers to one who follows the one true faith "Judaism". Asking whether Gentiles need to observe Torah, then is like asking if Communists in Cube must observe the US Bill of Rights. By definition Gentiles are those who chose not to follow the Torah, since by definition Jews are those who chose to follow Torah.

So your issue from our perspectives like asking if one who has chosen not to follow the Torah must follow the Torah,it is essentially a non-question. It is like asking if someone who has chosen not to go to the movies needs to watch the movie.

The Laws of Noach from our perspective are just the first commandments that must be learned while on the path to learning the whole Torah.





Bat Tzyion said:

I have no problem with observing Torah because we love YHWH.
I have a problem with you teaching that Gentiles MUST keep Torah, or they are considered ANTI-MESSIAH
and defining them as lost. I could find lots and lots and lots of slander towards Gentiles here at Nazarenespace due to your teachings here at Nazarenespace that mislead many that Gentiles MUST observe
all of the Torah, or they are wicked and evil. Gentiles are NOT required to keep the whole Torah
to be grafted into Messiah Yahushua period.





James Trimm said:

We do not observe Torah in order to earn a place in the World to Come.

We observe the Torah as DEVEKUT (communion) with YHWH.

Permalink Reply by Yacov Shlomo on October 28, 2010 at 10:15am

Bat Tzyion, The Netzarim Sanhedrin in 50 c.e. clearly instructed that to accept a Gentile into the Mishpocha, they first must abide by these 4 laws.
Then it would have been expected that the Goy would attend Shul and learn the Laws of Moshe which are the Laws of Messiah which are the Laws of Hashem.
If the Goy refused this, the Goys would NOT be accepted into the Mishpocha. Period.
Faith without works is dead as Rabbi Yaakov ben David taught.

Yes, Rabbi Trimm is correct in stating that if a Goy does not accept the Torah then they are indeed Anti-Messiah. You are also correct in stating that the Goys must be taught the Laws of Moshe. However, if the Goy did not accept the opinion of the Netzarim Sanhedrin then that Goy would indeed be casted out and considered Anti-Torah, Anti-Messiah and not apart of the Mishpocha. The Talmid is not thrown Gehinnom when the Talmid is wrong, but if the Talmid does not submit to the teachings of Hashem...a house divided against itself cannot stand.

The Talmid - Jew or Goy does not submit to his Rabbi to teach him the Laws of Moshe then how can the Talmid learn the Oral Law that Yeshua and His Talmidim quoted from in the Ketuvim Netzarim? Without a willing heart to "Be all you can be in Adonai's Army, then how can one consider themselves as children of the Most High.?!

Bat Tzyion said:

As far as I know the moed are for Gentiles too.
Also, we're going back to the first century faith are we not?
The first century disciples never taught that the Gentiles HAD to keep Torah.
They were found worthy to be grafted in to the Kingdom of YHWH through
Noachide Laws alone. IF they wanted to do more, it was their decision.
But Nazarene Judaism of this day does not follow that halacha, instead
they teach that unless Gentiles keep the whole Torah, they are
rejecting Torah and this is so wrong and in fact pushes many Gentiles
away, who would keep Noachide, if they knew what it was.
I think the entire movement is messed up big time due to teaching
that Gentiles are anti-Christ just because they do not want to keep
the whole Torah. The focus instead of slandering them with hatred
should be to teach them Noachide, to lead them gently into the
waters of Torah. It's the presentation I'm having a big problem with.




Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:

Bat Tzyion, why then does Zechariah require Gentiles to keep the Feast of Tabernacles? If they are required to keep one Moed, it would seem to be the case that they would have to keep all of them. Why just stop at that one? The idea of Israel being given Torah is so that it can teach the other nations the truth of Torah. As to why we keep the commandments of Yahuwah, i say the following:

If we have sinned, no amount of good we do can save us without the atonement of Yahuwah applied to us. With the atonement of Yahuwah applied to us, we can now be saved, but only if we stop sinning, and that would mean, we keep all the commandments that we are accountable for keeping based on the level of knowledge/light/accoutnability we have received.

Permalink Reply by Yacov Shlomo on October 28, 2010 at 9:45pm

Bat Tzyion - Your religious beliefs match that of Ignatious and the Nicean Council.

Bat Tzyion said:

I'm sorry Yacov, but attending shul to learn as a goy and keeping the shabbat as a Jew can be two different things
and that is where your confusion lays.
The Gentiles were NOT expected to keep the 7th day sabbath inorder to be considered righteous in the
eyes of Elohim period. Yes, they learned Torah on the 7th day as that is when the Jews met, but
that does not mean that they kept the sabbath with the Jews in the same manner in not working, etc.
You and Rabbi Trimm are NOT correct in stating that if a Goy does not accept the Torah then they are Anti-Messiah.
That is ridiculous theology that is not supported by scripture AT ALL anywhere!
Anti Messiah is defined in I John 4. The Gentiles who accept Yahushua and keep Noachide
and who do not decide to convert to being a Jew are absolutely NOT anti Messiah.
You don't even appear to know what the spirit of anti Messiah is. Bad teaching repeated
ad nausium over several years to many people does not make the bad teaching correct.
If a Goy did not accept the ruling of the Beit Din that was under Yahushua's halacha, then
they would not automatically be called an anti - Messiah, as to be deemed an anti-Messiah,
one has to fall under the definition of I John 4. I agree that a true Chasidic Nazarene movement
of the first century would require the goy to heed to his teachers, but I do not
consider this sect as a true form of what was in the first century AT ALL.
There is no 'all things common'. There is no baptism after repentance, there is no restored
priesthood, there is no todah offering/eucharist as the Holy Twelve did....it just is plain
missing ALOT.>







Yacov Azriel Shlomo said:

Bat Tzyion, The Netzarim Sanhedrin in 50 c.e. clearly instructed that to accept a Gentile into the Mishpocha, they first must abide by these 4 laws.
Then it would have been expected that the Goy would attend Shul and learn the Laws of Moshe which are the Laws of Messiah which are the Laws of Hashem.
If the Goy refused this, the Goys would NOT be accepted into the Mishpocha. Period.
Faith without works is dead as Rabbi Yaakov ben David taught.

Yes, Rabbi Trimm is correct in stating that if a Goy does not accept the Torah then they are indeed Anti-Messiah. You are also correct in stating that the Goys must be taught the Laws of Moshe. However, if the Goy did not accept the opinion of the Netzarim Sanhedrin then that Goy would indeed be casted out and considered Anti-Torah, Anti-Messiah and not apart of the Mishpocha. The Talmid is not thrown Gehinnom when the Talmid is wrong, but if the Talmid does not submit to the teachings of Hashem...a house divided against itself cannot stand.

The Talmid - Jew or Goy does not submit to his Rabbi to teach him the Laws of Moshe then how can the Talmid learn the Oral Law that Yeshua and His Talmidim quoted from in the Ketuvim Netzarim? Without a willing heart to "Be all you can be in Adonai's Army, then how can one consider themselves as children of the Most High.?!

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 28, 2010 at 11:34pm

Be not deceived with strange doctrines;
nor with old fables which are unprofitable.
For if we still continue to live according to the Jewish Law,
we do confess ourselves not to have received grace…
(Ignatious to the Magnesians 3:1)

But if any one shall preach the Jewish law unto you,
hearken not unto him…
(Ignatious to the Philipians Phil. 2:6)

"...no longer observing sabbaths, but keeping the Lord's day
in which also our life is sprung up by him, and through
his death..."
(Ignatious to the Magnesians 3:3)


Bat Tzyion said:

For Yacov,

First of all, where are you getting your erroneous view of Ignatius?
Wait, don't answer.....James Trimm.
So you are listening to man above scriptures that clearly state the first day of the week was
a day of worship after the resurrection of Messiah.
That is unfortunate for you, that you are listening to man above scripture,
as you are limiting yourself to an interpretation that is faulty.
Ignatius upheld the Noachide Torah of Moses for the Gentiles.
Gentiles are NOT required to keep the entire Torah given to the Jews.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

Paul's ministry was to teach Noachide to the Gentiles and more Torah to them, as soon as they
desired more.

I am pro Torah restoration, but I'm not going to force men to keep Torah by telling them
that unless they do, they are considered anti messiah to Yahushua and lawless.
That is just ignorant and hatemongering theology to say the least.






Yacov Azriel Shlomo said:

Bat Tzyion - Your religious beliefs match that of Ignatious and the Nicean Council.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Ingalls on October 28, 2010 at 11:39pm

If someone says that the Torah is abolished, is that not anti-Torah and Torah-less, and ultimately opposed to the Torah-keeping Messiah and His teachings as portrayed in the Ketuvim Netzarim?

Wayne



Bat Tzyion said:
I am pro Torah restoration, but I'm not going to force men to keep Torah by telling them
that unless they do, they are considered anti messiah to Yahushua and lawless.
That is just ignorant and hatemongering theology to say the least.



Yacov Azriel Shlomo said:

Bat Tzyion - Your religious beliefs match that of Ignatious and the Nicean Council.

Permalink Reply by James Trimm on October 29, 2010 at 12:30pm

>Wayne, I do not say that the Torah of YHWH is abolished. However, technically
>the laws of Moses were done away...

Can you say "double talk"

Permalink Reply by Wayne Ingalls on October 29, 2010 at 12:58pm

While many within the Pharisaic community ascribed their own rules to Moshe (e.g. Acts 15:1), this cannot abolish the instructions given by YHWH.

Allowing those from the nations to come to Torah and Messiah in a merciful manner (as enacted by the Nazarene Beit Din) does not mean that the Torah is not YHWH's standard for His body of believers. For example, the standards written in the letter from the Nazarene Beit Din all comes out of Vayyiqra/Leviticus, proving that even this book was written to the nations.

And no, I have never had any connection with Herbert Armstrong, the Worldwide Church of God or any related group.

Are you the founder of a heretofore unknown group of Noachide Mormons?

blessings,
Wayne



Bat Tzyion said:

Wayne, I do not say that the Torah of YHWH is abolished. However, technically
the laws of Moses were done away and in this I refer to the laws of Moses that
were made by the rulers of the Temple that were not of YHWH, but their own rules.
Even Yahushua says this.
I am saying that keeping the entire Torah of YHWH is not a requirement to be considered
a righteous Gentile. There are different stations in the hereafter. The more
righteous go to a higher place. If Gentiles do not want that reward, they can decide
not to have it. I have a feeling [not sure] that you were
raised in the Herbert Armstrong era who did not teach the Noachide rules
for Gentiles and insisted that all Gentiles keep the 7th day.
Someone can decide NOT to convert to being a Jew [circumcision] and still be
a righteous Gentile. The first century Beit Din simply made a ruling for the
Gentiles who were turning to Elohim that they need not be required to keep
the entire law of Moses inorder to be grafted into the community of Israel.
IF they decided to remain a Gentile they could and still fellowship with the Jews
Also, there are different definitions of 'the law of Moses' in that the Jews in
the Temple made halacha for circumcision that was outside the halacha of
Yahushua, in this those 'laws of Moses' as they called them were not being
upheld by the Beit Din of the Nazarene Jews of Yahushua as they were
to allow Gentiles the freedom to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Ignatius was part of Antioch, a benefactor of the ministry of Paul and Barnabas:

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 ¶ And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

The Torah is true. There is one Torah for Jew and Gentile. However in that Torah there are things given to Israel and within those instructions there are things that Gentiles must do to be considered righteous in the eyes of Elohim.
Those are the Noachide Laws that James Trimm outlined in his post.

We are not to condemn Gentiles who desire to graft into Israel, while they keep the Noachide, as they are grafted into Yahushua and are not obligated to keep the entire Torah. Therefore, their journey is one of the spirit and not of the flesh in that the hands of man do not force others to keep Torah or else be condemned and called anti-Messiah.
As long as the Gentiles enjoin Israel and keep Noachide, they are considered grafted in to the community of Israel.
The goal is to move further along into Torah keeping, but this is NOT a requirement and each person is treated
individually. If a Gentile who keeps the Noachide one day says 'I don't believe in the Torah' then that is a different story altogether, as they would be preaching against what the community of Israel teaches.

Ignatius did not reject the Torah. He was a pious saint who upheld the Torah and rejected the laws of Moses that the unbelieving Jews desired to yoke upon the Gentiles who were turning to Elohim.

There is another way to interpret Ignatius that you are not considering.
Ignatius is talking about the 'laws of Moses' made by those Jews who were making it difficult for
the Gentiles to turn to Elohim.

When Ignatius says that the Gentiles are not required to observe the sabbaths, he is right.
Observing the 7th day as the Jews who believe in Yahushua is not a requirement to be grafted into Israel.
It is not part of the Noachide Law.

What was happening is that the Gentiles were given grace to enter into the Kingdom of Elohim
and had requirements given them and when they went to shul on shabbat with the believing
Jews in the first century, they were there to be taught and were not actually considered to be
observing the shabbat fully as the Jews were.

This is why Paul was so misunderstood. He was opening the era for the Gentiles to be
grafted into the community of Israel and they were not required to keep the entire Torah inorder
to be grafted in. So it looked like he was saying not to keep the Torah, when his message
depended upon who was listening. If one was circumcized [a Jew] who was called to
come unto Messiah and be baptized, then he would not reject his circumcision, but if
a Gentile was uncircumcized, he was not required to become circumcized to be considered
a member of the community of Israel.

The goal is for full Torah observancy for all who desire to cleave unto YHWH and know Him more.
But it was not an absolute requirement for the Gentiles, inorder to be considered part of Israel.
I think that the Beit Din needs to make changes in how they approach Gentiles and stop calling
those Gentiles who are willing to keep the Noachide Laws 'anti Christs' and 'anomos' as they
are allowed to remain where they are at until and unless they are led to keep more Torah.
It is not that they are rejecting Torah in their being grafted in, but everyone is entitled to make
their journey in their own time and calling the Gentiles names and harassing them is a bad idea,
as it is not part of the halacha of Yahushua or Hillel who desired to draw Gentiles into Torah
with lovingkindness. I am not saying that Christianity are even Noachide, as obviously
they are not, as they are guilty of at least idolatry.
What they need to be taught as a foundation is that they are OUTSIDE of Noachide laws and
when they can master those, then they can keep more Torah, but the fact that they keep
JUST the Noachide laws makes them a part of Israel and grafted into the community.
Noachides can actually keep Sunday, the first day of the week set apart and then go to
shul on the 7th day to learn Torah and this is what they were doing after the resurrection
of Yahushua, as the Temple Jews rejected the Kingdom offer and the Kingdom was offered
to the Gentiles [who were not under the entire law] but rather under grace and they accepted it.
Christians today who keep Sunday are not considered grafted into Israel or Noachide.
First there must be a Beit Din of Jews who can properly interpret Paul, to make a place
for those Gentiles to be grafted into, inorder for any Gentile to actually be grafted into
Israel. As far as I can see, there are no 'technically' grafted in Gentiles, as there are
revelations missing that were given to the House of Joseph that the House of Judah must
first have before setting this up. I don't see this occuring until the end of the times of the
Gentiles when the Jews are unblinded. I view this sect of Nazarene Judaism as partially blinded
right now, yet Abba can use this ministry to teach many what the Torah is and sabbath
given to Israel, etc which is very beneficial in my opinion. I just don't think we have everything
we need right now for the restoration and view that more revelation needs to be received.
Again, I am Pro Torah, Pro Paul, believe he was a Torah keeper and promoter, yet I believe
that he had a special ministry to Gentiles and they were not actually required to observe
the 7th day inorder to be grafted into Israel. Gentiles got the kingdom given them and they
do NOT rule with the Torah of Elohim, as the sceptre belongs to the Jews. Therefore, another
day in David was set aside for them UNTIL the two houses come together. They worship
on the day of the resurrection, as this is a type of the firstfruits who came to Him as little children.



Wayne Ingalls said:

If someone says that the Torah is abolished, is that not anti-Torah and Torah-less, and ultimately opposed to the Torah-keeping Messiah and His teachings as portrayed in the Ketuvim Netzarim?

Wayne



Bat Tzyion said:
I am pro Torah restoration, but I'm not going to force men to keep Torah by telling them
that unless they do, they are considered anti messiah to Yahushua and lawless.
That is just ignorant and hatemongering theology to say the least.



Yacov Azriel Shlomo said:

Bat Tzyion - Your religious beliefs match that of Ignatious and the Nicean Council.

Permalink Reply by Steve on October 30, 2010 at 3:19pm

Ok this is a complex subject. From what I understand form what I learnd from robbonic Hasidic (Cabad) Judaism, is that both Jew an Rightous Gentile will have a share in the world to come. And a Rightous Gentile is defined as one who at least observes the 7-laws. However, when the Messiah returns, peach, justice, and rightous will rain, and God peaple (the Jews), his first born will be redeemed. And all the nations will come to learn Torah from them. "Ten people from every nation will grab the garments of the jew saying: take me with you for I heard G_d is with you." and the knowledge of Torah will fill the Earth as the water fills the sea. Therefore this will not be an issue then becaus every one will see that the remedy for their sickness and all there suffering in this would was right under there noses, the Torah (and there interpretation, pass down from generation to generation, going all the way back to Moses). Everyone will realize that Hashem (G_d) is what they were searching for all along, As is is written "Taste and you will see Hashem is good" (Psalm 34:8). One other thing I was woundering, why do we feal we need a sepreate faction from the main stream movement, startead be the Beshtt, In fact if you really think Yeashua is the Masiach (Messiah) then the Baal Shem Tov learned every thing from him (unless you think the Besht was a fony God forbed). For he spoke of assending to the heavenly chambers where 'Mesiach' stays, and he asked him "When are you comming", and he replied: "When the teaching wich you learned from me spreads to the most remote carners of the Earth." and as far as the oral law goes I will let The RamBam speak for me

1 All the commandments that were given to Moshe at Sinai were given together with their interpretation, as it is written "and I will give thee the Tables of Stone, and the Law, and the Commandment" (Exodus 24,12). "Law" is the Written Law; and "Commandment" is its interpretation: We were commanded to fulfill the Law, according to the Commandment. And this Commandment is what is called the Oral Law.

2 The whole of the Law was written down by Moshe Our Teacher before his death, in his own hand. He gave a scroll of the Law to each tribe; and he put another scroll by the Ark for a witness, as it is written "take this book of the Law, and put it by the side of the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee" (Deuteronomy 31,26).

3 But the Commandment, which is the interpretation of the Law--he did not write it down, but gave orders concerning it to the elders, to Yehoshua, and to all the rest of Israel, as it is written "all this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do . . ." (Deuteronomy 13,1). For this reason, it is called the Oral Law.

4 Although the Oral Law was not written down, Moshe Our Teacher taught all of it in his court to the seventy elders; and El`azar, Pinehas, and Yehoshua, all three received it from Moshe. And to his student Yehoshua, Moshe Our Teacher passed on the Oral Law and ordered him concerning it. And so Yehoshua throughout his life taught it orally.

5 Many elders received it from Yehoshua, and Eli received it from the elders and from Pinehas; Shemuel received it from Eli and his court, and David received it from Shemuel and his court. Ahiyah the Shilonite was among those who had come out of Egypt, and was a Levite, and had heard it from Moshe, but was a child in Moshe's time; and he received it from David and his court.

6 Eliyahu received it from Ahiyah the Shilonite and his court, Elisha received it from Eliyahu and his court, Yehoyada the Priest received it from Elisha and his court, Zecharyahu received it from Yehoyada and his court, Hoshea received it from Zecharyah and his court, Amos received it from Hoshea and his court, Yeshayahu received it from Amos and his court, Michah received it from Yeshayah and his court, Yoel received it from Michah and his court, Nahum received it from Yoel and his court, Havaqquq received it from Nahum and his court, Tsefanyah received it from Havaqquq and his court, Yirmiyah received it from Tsefanyah and his court, Baruch son of Neriyah received it from Yirmiyah and his court, and Ezra and his court received it from Baruch and his court.

7 The members of Ezra's court are called the Men of the Great Assembly, and they were Haggai, Zecharyah, Mal'achi, Daniyel Hananyah Mishael and Azaryah, Nehemyah son of Hachalyah, Mordochai, and Zerubavel; and many other sages were with them, numbering altogether one hundred twenty elders. The last of them was Shim`on the Righteous, who was included among the hundred twenty, and received the Oral Law from all of them; he was high priest after Ezra.

8 Antignos of Socho and his court received the Oral Law from Shim`on the Righteous and his court, Yosef son of Yoezer of Tseredah and Yosef son of Yohanan of Jerusalem and their court received it from Antignos and his court, Yehoshua son of Perahyah and Nittai the Arbelite and their court received it from Yosef and Yosef and their court, Yehudah son of Tabbai and Shim`on son of Shatah and their court received it from Yehoshua and Nittai and their court. Shemayah and Avtalyon, righteous converts, and their court received it from Yehudah and Shim`on and their court. Hillel and Shammai and their court received it from Shemayah and Avtalyon and their court, and Rabban Yohanan son of Zakkai and Rabban Shim`on the son of Hillel received it from Hillel and his court.

9 Rabban Yohanan son of Zakkai had five students, and they were the greatest among the Torah scholars who received it from him; they were Rabbi Eliezer the Great, Rabbi Yehoshua, Rabbi Yose the Priest, Rabbi Shim`on son of Netan'el, and Rabbi El`azar son of Arach. Rabbi Aqivah son of Yosef received it from Rabbi Eliezer the Great, and his father, Yosef, was a righteous convert. Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Meir, the son of a righteous convert, received it from Rabbi Aqivah. Rabbi Meir and his colleagues also received it from Rabbi Yishmael.

10 Rabbi Meir's colleagues were Rabbi Yehudah, Rabbi Yose, Rabbi Shim`on, Rabbi Nehemyah, Rabbi El`azar son of Shammua, Rabbi Yohanan the sandal maker, Shim`on son of Azzai, and Rabbi Hananya son of Teradyon. Rabbi Aqivah's colleagues also received it from Rabbi Eliezer the Great; Rabbi Aqivah's colleagues were Rabbi Tarfon, the teacher of Rabbi Yose the Galilean, Rabbi Shim`on son of El`azar, and Rabbi Yohanan son of Nuri.

11 Rabban Gamliel the Elder received it from his father, Rabban Shim`on son of Hillel; his son, Rabban Shim`on, received it from him; his son, Rabban Gamliel, received it from him; and his son, Rabban Shim`on, received it from him. Rabbi Yehudah son of Rabban Shim`on is called Our Holy Teacher, and he received it from his father, and from Rabbi El`azar son of Shammua and from Rabbi Shim`on, his colleague.

12 Our Holy Teacher wrote the Mishnah. From the time of Moshe to Our Holy Teacher, no one had written a work from which the Oral Law was publicly taught. Rather, in each generation, the head of the then-existing court or the prophet of the time wrote down for his private use notes on the traditions he had heard from his teachers, and he taught in public from memory.

13 So too, each one wrote down, according to his ability, parts of the explanation of the Torah and of its laws that he had heard, as well as the new matters that developed in each generation, which had not been received by oral tradition, but had been deduced by applying the Thirteen Principles for Interpreting the Torah, and had been agreed upon by the Great Rabbinical Court. Such had always been done, until the time of Our Holy Teacher.

14 He gathered together all the traditions, all the enactments, and all the explanations and interpretations that had been heard from Moshe Our Teacher or had been deduced by the courts of all the generations in all matters of the Torah; and he wrote the Book of the Mishnah from all of them. And he taught it in public, and it became known to all Israel; everyone wrote it down and taught it everywhere, so that the Oral Law would not be forgotten by Israel.

15 Why did Our Holy Teacher do so, and did not leave things as they were? Because he saw that the number of students was continuing to go down, calamities were continually happening, wicked government was extending its domain and increasing in power, and the Israelites were wandering and emigrating to remote places. He thus wrote a work to serve as a handbook for all, so that it could be rapidly studied and would not be forgotten; throughout his life, he and his court continued giving public instruction in the Mishnah.

THE COMPLETE RESTATEMENT
OF THE ORAL LAW
(Mishneh Torah)

-Steve