Who are the people of Elohim today?
Tags: church, israel, remnant, replacement, seperation
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mikha El on -
Stephen,
To find out the answer to your query, IMO one first needs to understand the English word "church" and it''s origins. Dr. Trimm explains it quite well here:
MEANING OF THE WORD "CHURCH"
Now if you look up the English word "Church" in Webster's dictionary you will find the following meanings:
1. a building set apart or consecrated for public worship, esp. one for Christian worship.
2. All Christians as a whole.
3. A denomination of Christians.
In short a "church" is either a building or a group of Christians. Now wherever we see the English word "church" in an English Bible we would expect the underlying Greek word would be a Greek word that also means "a group of Christians". Since the English uses such a technical theological term one would expect that the Greek has also used a technical theological term. But the reality is that the Greek word that appears wherever the English has "church" is not a technical theological term and DOES NOT mean "a group of Christians" at all. That’s right, a technical theological term of pagan origin meaning "a group of Christians" has been inserted in your English Bible despite the fact that the corresponding Greek word is not a technical theological term and does not mean the same thing as the word "Church".
The Greek word that appears where our English Bible's have "church" is EKKLESIA. EKKLESIA is just the Greek word for "assembly". Although it comes from a root meaning "to call out" there is no special theological significance to this word. In fact this is the same Greek word that was used for "assembly" by the classical Pagan Greek writers. Inscriptions in ancient Greek auditoriums where pagan ritual dramas were performed by the Bachus cult have the audience section inscribed with the sign "EKKLESIA". This same Greek word EKKLESIA is used throughout the Greek Septuagint translation of the TaNaKh as the word for "assembly". There are also many places where the Greek word EKKLESIA appears in the NT but which the KJV and other translators did NOT translate the word as "church". This same Greek word is even used in Acts 19:32-41 to describe an unruly mob, yet here the translators suddenly translate the word as "assembly" rather than "church". There is therefore no such thing as the "church" because the Greek word translated "church" does not mean "church" at all but "assembly".
THE ASSEMBLY, WHICH IS MESSIAH'S BODY
Now there are some who claim that the "Church" was a new entity born in Acts 2 at Pentecost of 32 C.E. . However if we examine the events of Acts 2 we find that at that event persons were "added to" the "church" (Acts 2:47) which means that the "church" had to have already existed at that time.
Now one may ask what "Assembly" is the allegorical Messiah? To find the answer to that question lets look at Matthew 2:14-15: "When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. " (Matthew 2:14-15 - KJV) Now here Matthew is citing a prophecy in Hosea 11:1 and applying it to Messiah. Now let us go back and look at this prophecy in Hosea 11:1 in context: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." (Hosea 11:1 - KJV)
Here Hosea is referring to Israel as the son who is called out of Egypt. This points us back to a passage in the Torah: "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn." (Ex. 4:22-23 - KJV) From these two passages we learn that Israel is the firstborn son of Elohim who is called out of Egypt. However in Matthew it is Yeshua the Messiah who is called up out of Egypt and in Col. 1:18 Messiah is the "firstborn". Moreover Hebrews speaks of the "church of the firstborn" (Heb. 12:23 - KJV). Thus Israel is allegorically equivalent to the Messiah. There are some very important reasons for this allegorical relationship:
Both are the "firstborn Son of Elohim".
Both made a major impact on the world.
Both were born through a biological miracle on their mother's womb.
Both were taken into Egypt to save their lives.
Both were called up out of Egypt.
Both were despised and rejected by men.
Rome attempted to destroy them both.
Both are resurrected.
Thus Israel is the allegorical "Body of Messiah". Moreover in the TaNaKh, (“Old Testament”) Israel is commonly called "The Assembly of Israel" and wherever the phrase "The Assembly of Israel" appears in the TaNaKh the Greek LXX has "EKKLESIA of Israel". The so-called "church" which is the "Body of Messiah" is in reality "the Assembly of Israel". Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, but to be Messiah of the old one. Wherever your English New Testament refers to a "church" (i.e. a group of Christians) the Greek has "EKKLESIA a term that commonly refers to the "Assembly of Israel". The "Church" as most Christians have understood it never existed. All of the passages people have thought were talking about the "Church" were actually talking about the Assembly of Israel, not Christianity, but the Nazarene sect of Judaism.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Otto on -
mikah, great comments! However, I respectively disagree with one thing! In the Scriptures, Believers in Yeshua were called Nazarenes (Acts 24:5) and Christians/Messianics (Acts 11:26) by our detractors! The truth is that we are Israel- not a sect of Israel (Gal. 6:15-16)!
Sometime after John the Baptizer began his ministry, a group of Pharisees and Sadducees came to him, most likely under the pretense of wanting to be baptized. John rebuked them saying, “… Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Matt. 3:7-10). John knew that the Pharisees and Sadducees were Abraham’s physical descendants. More importantly, though, his declaration, “do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’” proves that he didn’t count them as being descendants of Abraham!
At the beginning of Yeshua’s ministry, when He was in the process of choosing His disciples, He was introduced to Nathanael, a spiritually-minded Jew. Upon meeting him Yeshua joyfully declared, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit” (John 1:47)! Yeshua knew that Nathanael was a physical descendant of Abraham. More importantly, though, His declaration, “Behold, an Israelite indeed...,” proves that He also counted Nathanael as being a descendant of Abraham!
Once, Yeshua said to a group of Jewish people, “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.” They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Yeshua said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God.” Yeshua said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me. … You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:37-42, 44). Notice that Yeshua made two seemingly contradictory statements: “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants” and “You are of your father the devil.” The truth is that these two statements really don’t contradict one another at all. Physically, the Jewish people in question were indeed the children of Abraham; but, spiritually, they were the children of the devil!
Paul states, “Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the Torah, and make your boast in God, … For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the Torah; but if you are a breaker of the Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. … For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God” (Rom. 2:17, 25, 28-29).
Paul also states, “I tell the truth in Messiah, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Messiah for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Torah, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Messiah came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed” (Rom. 9:1-8, Emphasis added).
Notice that Paul differentiates between two Israels: Israel “of the flesh” and Israel of the promise.” He states that his countrymen “according to the flesh” are “accursed from Messiah.” His statement, “For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,” means that his “countrymen according to the flesh” are actually not inheritors of: “the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Torah, the service of God, and the promises.” He states, “nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” This statement serves as an example of the fact that not all of Abraham’s physical descendants are counted as his children, just as Ishmael wasn’t, but Isaac was (Gal. 4:21-31). So, despite the fact that Ishmael was a physical descendant of Abraham, he was not an inheritor of the covenant blessings and Paul’s point is, neither are the physical descendants of Abraham, who are “countrymen according to the flesh.” Paul’s statement, “those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed,” means that Abraham’s “countrymen according to the flesh” are not counted as the “children of God.”
Thus, God counts only the believers in Yeshua as being Israel and the fact is that here are no sects of our faith! Referring to us as a sect of fleshly Israel reduces us to a secondary status and elevates them to the primary status, whereas there is only one status- Israel! The reason why we willingly accept a secondary status as a sect of fleshly Israel today is because we don't want to offend our "brothers" in the faith! The time has come to recognize who we are, Israel, and if fleshly Israel has a problem with that, they're going to have to come to terms with it!
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Permalink Reply by Mikha El on
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Stephen,
We both agree it appears on what the 1st believers in Yeshua called themselves...Nazarenes.
I'm not sure why you felt you needed to elaborate on "Judaism" per say. Dr. Trimm plainly states that the "Nazarene sect (assembly) of Judaism", is what Yahuda was referring to when he mentioned the "One Faith". I think I may have misread this section of what you had written...
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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When did they call themselves this (in the scriptures) ?
I'm not aware of any passage where a believer in Yeshua calls himself a "Nazarene."
mikha El said:Stephen,
We both agree it appears on what the 1st believers in Yeshua called themselves...Nazarenes.
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Permalink Reply by Mikha El on
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Surely your aware of Sha'ul on trail before before Felix?
Act 24:5 “For having found this man a plague, who stirs up dissension among all the Yehuḏim throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Natsarenes,
Also notice I said, "it appears". Simple logic dictates that if this is what the group was known as, this is what they would have called themselves and each other....AMONG OTHER THINGS of course. :>)
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Otto on
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Mikah, The question is where in the Scriptures do believers in Yeshua calls themselves "Nazarenes?" Acts 24:5 reveals the term the Jewish authorities used to reference Believers! Of course, the reason why they referred to us as a sect is because they rejected us as being Israel! Well, the Scriptures tell us that we are Israel and, unless they are Believers in Yeshua, they are not! They cannot regulate us to a second rate sect! Paul refers to us as the "Israel of Elohim" (Gal. 6:15-16), not the "Nazarenes of Elohim"!
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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Paul doesn't say those words.
Acts 24:
1Five days later the high priest Ananias went down to Caesarea with some of the elders and a lawyer named Tertullus, and they brought their charges against Paul before the governor.
2When Paul was called in, Tertullus presented his case before Felix:
“We have enjoyed a long period of peace under you, and your foresight has brought about reforms in this nation. 3Everywhere and in every way, most excellent Felix, we acknowledge this with profound gratitude.4But in order not to weary you further, I would request that you be kind enough to hear us briefly.
5“For we have found this man (Paul) a source of mischief and a disturber of the peace among all the Jews throughout the Empire, and a ringleader in the heresy of the Nazarenes.
6 He even attempted to profane the Temple, but we arrested him.."
I suppose you think Tertullus is right concerning his charge that Paul tried to desecrate the temple too.
Tertullus uses the word, not Paul - NEVER does Paul apply that word to himself.
That name is applied with as much accuracy, by non-believers, as is the term Christian and Galileean.
The believers in Yeshua themselves only ever call themselves "brethren" and "followers of the way."
mikha El said:Surely your aware of Sha'ul on trail before before Felix?
Act 24:5 “For having found this man a plague, who stirs up dissension among all the Yehuḏim throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Natsarenes,
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Permalink Reply by Stephen Otto on
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Solomon,
I looked up the Greek word translated "sect" and it indeed means "heresy"!The Jewish authorities rejected Yeshua as their Messiah and, no doubt, they referred to His followers mockingly as "the heresy of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5), based on the fact that Yeshua was from Nazareth (Isa. 11:1; 53:3; Matt. 2:23)! No doubt, our detractors also referred to us as Christians/Messianics (Acts 11:26) for the same reason! Of course, those who believed in Messiah Yeshua would not be offended by these titles and it is entirely possible that, in time, they adopted them! This knee-jerk reaction would prove to be the reason why we eventually forgot who we are- Israel!
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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Actually the Greek word in question means "division" or "faction" it is however our English word "heresy" is derived from this word. There is a WORLD of difference between the definition of a Greek word and the definition of an English word derivative of that word.
For example the word "Creatin" means "a complete idiot, but it is derived from the Greek word Christianos ("Christian") which does not actually mean that.
Merriam Webster's
noun Etymology: French crétin, from French dialect cretin, literally, wretch, innocent victim, from Latin christianus Christian Date: 1779 1. one afflicted with cretinism 2. a stupid, vulgar, or insensitive person ; clod, lout • cretinous adjective
http://www.wordswarm.net/dictionary/cretin.html
In both cases you can see how the word may have been derived from the Greek word (though the word "Christianus comes through Latin, it is originally Greek), but the derivative is highly influenced by a later opinion being read into the Greek word.
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Permalink Reply by Mikha El on
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Stephen,
I understood the question asked, thank you. Chris (Solomon) has in the past, and now again, taken exception of the possibility of early followers being called Nazarenes and OTHER THINGS as I mentioned above. (Sons of Light, "followers of the way", ...etc) It is obvious as he points out, Sha'ul does not call himself that in Acts. What's not so obvious though is the other evidence we have in the "church fathers" writings that prove the point I attempted to make.
Stephen Otto said:Mikah, The question is where in the Scriptures do believers in Yeshua calls themselves "Nazarenes?" Acts 24:5 reveals the term the Jewish authorities used to reference Believers! Of course, the reason why they referred to us as a sect is because they rejected us as being Israel! Well, the Scriptures tell us that we are Israel and, unless they are Believers in Yeshua, they are not! They cannot regulate us to a second rate sect! Paul refers to us as the "Israel of Elohim" (Gal. 6:15-16), not the "Nazarenes of Elohim"!
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
Thus, God counts only the believers in Yeshua as being Israel and the fact is that here are no sects of our faith!
comment:
there is only one israel: Yaakov or the nation that came from him. israel is necessarily "a nation" of common descent, culture and religion founded upon a covenant, this is what the old testament is all about; to change that concept you will need to overhaul everything in the tanakah. the Father has appropriated israel to himself and their covenant shall be unto all generations: G-d does not change His mind.
but The Son has the gentiles for His inheritance and possession (Ps. 2:8) for this He founded a Church (Kenesiya) and sent His disciples to all nation to convert them into the messianic faith (not to torah). this is very clear from the writings addressed to the gentile churches. if Moshiach Yeshua should only create a ghost of another competing "israel" why would He need to found a church? why not rather proclaim israel and torah to all nations? yet this He did not, nay his apostles. the mission of the latter was very clear: "to preach the gospel to all nations" thus create churches in every place; this did his disciples as you can read in the NT.
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Referring to us as a sect of fleshly Israel reduces us to a secondary status and elevates them to the primary status, whereas there is only one status- Israel!
comment:
there is only one destination for every faithful soul: The Kingdom come. the only status that you need is to live a new life in the Spirit. for "his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. " (Lk. 1:50) there is no such thing as status: G-d is the sole judge of all souls and He judges from the heart, not from the basis of one's visa or passport.
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The reason why we willingly accept a secondary status as a sect of fleshly Israel today is because we don't want to offend our "brothers" in the faith! The time has come to recognize who we are, Israel, and if fleshly Israel has a problem with that, they're going to have to come to terms with it!
comment:
there is no primary no secondary status: everyone shall be judged by his deeds, not by birth.
it is easier for the gentile to live since he is guided mainly by his own conscience; while the Jew shall keep everything in the mandate of torah halachot.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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the concept that made "nazarenes" as sect within Judaism is the faith in Moshiach which was not officially held by the orthodox leadership, and what made them nazarenes (rather than christians) is the great degree of keeping the laws of Moses which the "christians" in Antioch did not keep as a matter of official sanction after the council in jerusalem.
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