Mary of Clopas??
Papias records, "The second Mary is the wife of Cleopas or Alphaeus, and was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of Joseph." (From a Bodleian Library manuscript.)
Hegesippus records, "With show of reason it could be said that Symeon was one of those who actually saw and heard the Master, on the ground of his great age, and also because the Scripture of the Good News makes mention of Mary, the daughter of Cleopas, who, as our narrative has shown already, was his father." (From Eusebius' Ecclesiastic History; Book 3, Chapter 32.)
So who is Clopas, and who is Mary?
Hegesippus records, "With show of reason it could be said that Symeon was one of those who actually saw and heard the Master, on the ground of his great age, and also because the Scripture of the Good News makes mention of Mary, the daughter of Cleopas, who, as our narrative has shown already, was his father." (From Eusebius' Ecclesiastic History; Book 3, Chapter 32.)
So who is Clopas, and who is Mary?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Margaret Frost on -
According to the scriptures, this is Yeshua's Aunt Mary.
http://tsiyon.org/family_of_christ3/
Yeshua’s Family Album Pg 3 #06
"Continuing our look at Yeshua’s family album we fast-forward to the Cross. There we find certain women bravely present and looking on. Who are these women? What is their relationship to Yeshua? Who else is related to Yeshua in connection with them and how? You will learn a lot about relationships of the early believing community as we also de-bunk some of the popular myths in the process. As you get to know more about Yeshua’s family relationships He will become more real to you than ever before."
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Permalink Reply by 命 on -
Can't say I think Papias is correct on this one...
Seems like he's adhering to what would later become standard Catholic denial of Mary's post-Yeshua motherhood.
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Permalink Reply by Margaret Frost on
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Christian said:Can't say I think Papias is correct on this one...
Seems like he's adhering to what would later become standard Catholic denial of Mary's post-Yeshua motherhood.
This Mary of Clopas, the other Mary at the cross, was married to Clopas. Clopas is one of the twin brothers of Joseph the carpenter.
Genealogies do get confusing, especially when same names are common within a family. So Mary of Clopus has nothing to do with whether or not Yeshua's mother gives birth to later children.
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Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on -
In the original gospel context, the word for "woman", "wife", or "daughter" is not used. It simply says "Mary of Clopas".
Thus, either Polycarp or Hegesippus is confused.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:The word translated in "greek" as "wife" can also mean "woman" as it does the same in the Hebrew. Thus, a question to ask is, are not all the daughters of a father accurately described as his women? when they refer to someone's wife, they also say "his woman". This indicates possession. He owns his wife; they belong to each other. The father also owns the daughters. So, yes, the woman could be both the woman of Cleopas and the daughter of the same Cleopas at the same time, without him being married to her, which would of course be contrary to Torah and morality in general. As to that fragment coming from Papias, I'll have to do research on it, for I did not know that there were any fragments of Papias that survived apart from quotations in the Church Fathers writings.
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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Lol, you misunderstood.
Papias said:
"The second Mary is the wife of Cleopas or Alphaeus, and was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of Joseph."
James actually is the brother of Yeshua, probably born from Mary and Joseph.
Papias however adhered to standard Catholic denial of Mary's post-Yeshua motherhood, thus choosing to assign Mary of Clopas to James as his mother...
Margaret Frost said:
Christian said:Can't say I think Papias is correct on this one...
Seems like he's adhering to what would later become standard Catholic denial of Mary's post-Yeshua motherhood.
This Mary of Clopas, the other Mary at the cross, was married to Clopas. Clopas is one of the twin brothers of Joseph the carpenter.
Genealogies do get confusing, especially when same names are common within a family. So Mary of Clopus has nothing to do with whether or not Yeshua's mother gives birth to later children.
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Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on
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LOL- totally didn't mean to say Polycarp, he has nothing to do with it. Papias is who I meant to say.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:Jesse, you forget that Papias learned from the apostles themselves. So, when the Gospel says "Mary of Clopas" that can mean "wife" or "daughter" or "woman". of indicates ownership. Papias can know from clarification by speaking ot apostles how Mary was "of" Clopas. He simply discerned so in what way. Now, Hegessipus and Polycarp need not conflict, but rather, the people translating them misunderstood one or the other. Thus, originally, they both taught either "wife" or both "daughter". Later copyists did not know which was which in the context and the translators into greek rendered one for Hegessipus, and the other for Papias, when originally they had said the same thing.
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Permalink Reply by Margaret Frost on
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There are 2 apostles named James. One James is the son of Zebedee and Salome, the other James is the son of Clopas aka Alphaeus and Mary of Clopas. Both of these James, along with their brothers, are cousins to Yeshua. There is another James the brother of Jesus who is not one of the twelve, but leads the early assembly (James the Just)
Eusebius writes that after the martyrdom of James the Just, they take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James...
"They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph. "
Yeshua's family and extended family was key in his ministry.
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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Yes, Papias said:
"James the bishop and apostle".
That's the James in question, who was actually Yeshua's brother.
Margaret Frost said:There are 2 apostles named James. One James is the son of Zebedee and Salome, the other James is the son of Clopas aka Alphaeus and Mary of Clopas. Both of these James, along with their brothers, are cousins to Yeshua. There is another James the brother of Jesus who is not one of the twelve, but leads the early assembly (James the Just)
Eusebius writes that after the martyrdom of James the Just, they take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James...
"They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph. "
Yeshua's family and extended family was key in his ministry.
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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In other words Ya'akov HaTzadik (James the Just) rather than James who was one of the Twelve.
They are frequently confused, even in ancient sources.
Christian said:Yes, Papias said:
"James the bishop and apostle".
That's the James in question, who was actually Yeshua's brother.
Margaret Frost said:There are 2 apostles named James. One James is the son of Zebedee and Salome, the other James is the son of Clopas aka Alphaeus and Mary of Clopas. Both of these James, along with their brothers, are cousins to Yeshua. There is another James the brother of Jesus who is not one of the twelve, but leads the early assembly (James the Just)
Eusebius writes that after the martyrdom of James the Just, they take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James...
"They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph. "
Yeshua's family and extended family was key in his ministry.
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Permalink Reply by Margaret Frost on
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that would not surprised me! lol :)
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:Wait a minute, I thought James Trimm was second cousin of Yahushua twice removed. There are too many James' to remember... ;)
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