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James Trimm said:
I think the issue here is simply the wife who refuses to be submissive to her husband's headship.
We are not talking about arguing over the TV remote here, nor are we talking about divorcing over burnt dinner or finding a prettier girl.
We are talking about the wife who will not accept the Headship pf her husband just as the House of Israel did not accept the headship of YHWH.
DAVAR Z'NOT is to be understood as "going astray" and may refer to the
wife who will not be subject to her husband's headship, as we read
"For, behold, they that go far from You shall perish; You do destroy
all them THAT GO ASTRAY from you. (Ps. 73:27)" and "For just as you do
not let the water go and abound, thus do not let the wicked wife go
and sin. And if she will not follow your direction, cut her off from
your flesh, and divorce her from your house." (Sira 25:25-26). And as
Paul writes:" Wives be subject to your husbands as to our Adon,
Because the husband is the head of the wife, Even as the Messiah is
head of the Assembly; and he is the life-giver of the body. But even
as the Assembly is subject to the Messiah, So also wives [should be
subject] to their husbands in everything." (Eph. 5:22-27 see also Gen.
3:16; Eph. 5:22-27; 1Cor. 11:3; 14:34-35; Col. 3:18; Titus 2:2-5;
1Kefa 3:1-7).
Divorce is always a last resort. Even when there is a matter of
Z'NOT, though a man has the right to divorce, the preferred way is to
forgive and work out the problems. Divorce should be reserved for
situations from which repentance is not forthcoming or where the Z'NOT
is not likely to stop.
Yirmeyahu said:
That is certainly one side of the coin but the other is also extremely important to keep in mind. What is written in the talmud? R. Akiva argued, 'He may divorce her even if he found another woman more beautiful than she. (Git 9:10).
Messiah's words were most likely directed at the those who apopted the leniency of the Hillelite position in order to satisfy their carnal desires after the the wife of their youth had lost her figure.
It is true, however, that at times it is perhaps advisable to break company with a marriage mate. I think if that is the case, it is only necessary to make sense of the situation to remember that we are not justified by the law, and if we happen to break a law by getting a divorce, then our salvation is not in jeopardy, because it is impossible for us to keep the law perfectly. An aberration of the law is not the end of the world, so long as you humble yourself and admit you have failed the law, and set your mind not to do it again.
It is very important to keep in mind Lev 26:40-42 for such cases.
My opinion is that it is indeed a missing of the mark to get a divorce. If necessity dictates one should divorce, then one should repent before YHWH and ask forgiveness and it will likely be given him/her.
If on the other hand you twist the words of Messiah to mean that divorce is completely legal for any cause like the Talmud and the Hilellites say, in practice you never feel any need to repent for missing the mark, and your spiritual health is weakened because in YHWH's eyes you have sinned and not repented. And that because you insist on interpreting Scriptures according the program of the Hillelites.
James Trimm said:In the Scriptures a man seems to be made accountable to keep his house in order. Yet you are telling me his wife can do anything under the sun just as long as she does not commit adultery and he can do nothing and must remain her husband and be held accountable for not keeping his house in order at the same time... How would that be just?
Permalink Reply by 命 on July 22, 2012 at 3:29pm Well cultural context is kinda important, don't you think?
Many marriages were arranged, pressured or whatnot, and people didn't choose their partners with the freedom as they do today, so divorce was more understandable. That's probably why certain of the Rabbis had a liberal attitude toward it.
ZNOT is from the root word Zanah H2181 זָנָה
1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
a) (Qal)
1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
2) to commit adultery
3) to be a cult prostitute
4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
The word is primarily used to refer to literal inappropriate sexual activities and secondarily to spiritual infidelity. Why not just interpret the word according to its most primary usage? In the context of two humans being married it makes more sense to interpret ZANAH as lack of fidelity. The first occurrance of this verb is clearly associated with illicit sexual activity (Gen 34:1).
So, imo, a good ultra-literal translation for DAVAR ZONOT is probably "a matter of illicit sexual activity". That is in full accordance with the most sane interpretation of Deut 24:1 as well. Exceedingly simple and no twisting is required.
James Trimm said:
DAVAR Z'NOT is to be understood as "going astray" and may refer to the
wife who will not be subject to her husband's headship, as we read
"For, behold, they that go far from You shall perish; You do destroy
all them THAT GO ASTRAY from you. (Ps. 73:27)" and "For just as you do
not let the water go and abound, thus do not let the wicked wife go
and sin. And if she will not follow your direction, cut her off from
your flesh, and divorce her from your house." (Sira 25:25-26). And as
Paul writes:" Wives be subject to your husbands as to our Adon,
Because the husband is the head of the wife, Even as the Messiah is
head of the Assembly; and he is the life-giver of the body. But even
as the Assembly is subject to the Messiah, So also wives [should be
subject] to their husbands in everything." (Eph. 5:22-27 see also Gen.
3:16; Eph. 5:22-27; 1Cor. 11:3; 14:34-35; Col. 3:18; Titus 2:2-5;
1Kefa 3:1-7).
Divorce is always a last resort. Even when there is a matter of
Z'NOT, though a man has the right to divorce, the preferred way is to
forgive and work out the problems. Divorce should be reserved for
situations from which repentance is not forthcoming or where the Z'NOT
is not likely to stop.
Yirmeyahu said:That is certainly one side of the coin but the other is also extremely important to keep in mind. What is written in the talmud? R. Akiva argued, 'He may divorce her even if he found another woman more beautiful than she. (Git 9:10).
Messiah's words were most likely directed at the those who apopted the leniency of the Hillelite position in order to satisfy their carnal desires after the the wife of their youth had lost her figure.
It is true, however, that at times it is perhaps advisable to break company with a marriage mate. I think if that is the case, it is only necessary to make sense of the situation to remember that we are not justified by the law, and if we happen to break a law by getting a divorce, then our salvation is not in jeopardy, because it is impossible for us to keep the law perfectly. An aberration of the law is not the end of the world, so long as you humble yourself and admit you have failed the law, and set your mind not to do it again.
It is very important to keep in mind Lev 26:40-42 for such cases.
My opinion is that it is indeed a missing of the mark to get a divorce. If necessity dictates one should divorce, then one should repent before YHWH and ask forgiveness and it will likely be given him/her.
If on the other hand you twist the words of Messiah to mean that divorce is completely legal for any cause like the Talmud and the Hilellites say, in practice you never feel any need to repent for missing the mark, and your spiritual health is weakened because in YHWH's eyes you have sinned and not repented. And that because you insist on interpreting Scriptures according the program of the Hillelites.
James Trimm said:In the Scriptures a man seems to be made accountable to keep his house in order. Yet you are telling me his wife can do anything under the sun just as long as she does not commit adultery and he can do nothing and must remain her husband and be held accountable for not keeping his house in order at the same time... How would that be just?
Permalink Reply by michaelnoble(messengerofYah) on July 30, 2012 at 6:28pm Rom.7:1-3 Or do you not know,brothers-for I speak to those knowing the Torah-that the Torah rules over a man as long as he lives? For the married woman has been bound by Torah to the living husband, but if the husband dies,she is released from the Torah concerning her husband. So then,while her husband lives,she shall be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's.But if her husband dies,she is free from that part of the Torah,so that she is not an adulteress,having become another man's.It is written.
1 Or do you not know, my brothers, (for I speak to learned ones of the Torah), that the
Torah has authority over a man as long as he is alive,
2 As a woman who is bound by the Torah to her husband, as long as he is alive. But if
her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah from her husband.
3 And if, while her husband is alive, she has intercourse with another man, she becomes
an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is freed by the Torah, and she is not an
adulteress if she marries another.
(Rom. 7:1-3 HRV)
Of course she is bound to him as long as he is alive, but it does not say he is bound to her...
© 2013 Created by James Trimm.