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Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on February 19, 2011 at 5:49pm Deuteronomy 34:10, "No prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom YHWH knew face to face."
All throughout the Scriptures we are pointed to Moses, and Moses points us toward Yeshua. Everything else seems, though it is inspired by God, is more like commentary.
The problem with viewing all Scripture (and apocryphal writings) as equally authoritative is that, as Christian pointed out, you end up in a situation where you have to "find some way to rationalize, not matter how big the discrepancy might be", and I have seen you do this on a number of occasions. That's why I take Torah as an absolute standard.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Christian, i have found contradictions in books and have rejected them upon such. This is why I rejected Jasher, 2 Enoch, and the Revelation of Sedrach, among others, because i saw they had contradictory teachings with the rest of the Scriptures.
I have yet to run into an example of Scripture that i currently regard as Scripture that i view as a "difficult" passage. Everything i read i take literally, as the author intended it to be taken.
What I do is as follows Christian:
1.A passage with the current interpretation i am reading it seems to contradict another passage.
2.Can this passage be understood logically and fit the context of what is being spoken, in any other perspective than is currently being used?
3.After rejecting the perspectives that cannot fit the text, we are left with several perspectives that could all fit the context, or at least it would seem on the surface. then what happens is i seek what the context of the overall book is and also compare it to the context of Scripture.
4.I only accept things that can fit the context perfectly.
5.Textual critcism is usedt o determine if the error is more likely a scribal error, or part of the originl./ if deemed part of the original, it simply must be rejected.
As to Jesse, your idea of hierarchy of Scripture, it is nonexistent except in the case of the Torah. You view the Torah alone as Scripture, whereas the rest of what you call Scripture is viewed as people's personal interpretation not guided by God. This is false advertisement on your part. As for me, I regard all the books as Scripture, becaues His people wrote as having such authority, and such authority is self-evident.
Where did you get this idea that Torah alone is Scripture? Certainly Enoch would disagree.
Permalink Reply by 命 on February 19, 2011 at 6:50pm
Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on February 19, 2011 at 6:53pm By "rationalize" I mean to go to great lengths to justify the difference between two texts, when this justification is not correct to the true nature of either text.
One such example was the obvious contradiction between Jubilees and Testament of Levi, though I've no desire to rehash that discussion, just giving an example since you asked.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
This is not a problem. By "rationalize" i assume you mean the negative connoation in which one interprets text in such a way that it is a clear violation of the intent of the author, not the positive meaning it can have in which one seeks a rational interpretation of the text. If two books are contradictory, one of them is just not authoritative, its as simple as that. If you can sufficiently demonstrate conradictory things that are inherently contradictory through the demonstration of textual criticism, then something has to be rejected as Scripture. Making these canonical decisions is not a problem to the concept of authoritative canonicity of others writings. Could you offer at least just one example in which i apparently rationalize, in the sense of itnerpreting it contrary to the spirit of the text?
Christian,
It is an intersecting question. Typically a Tanak book would take priority over a NT book, but in the case of the Apocrypha, there is the issue of the question of the shorter canon. Of course we have two rules of hermeneutics which deal with this issue. The second rule of Hillel says that two passages may appear to contradict until a third passage resolves the conflict. There is also a protestant principle of hermeneutics called the Analogy of Scripture which says that if we understand two passages in such a way that they contradict, we are misunderstanding one or both or these. So one might simply respond that if you (Christian) understand a passage in such a way that they seem to contradict, you are misunderstanding one or both of them, and a third passage may reconcile the apparent conflict.
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on February 19, 2011 at 8:43pm Jesse, you are unbelievable. That is something i am 10,000% convinced on, and i did not go to any extreme lengths at all. It seems you are ignorant of the language of Hebrew to suggest that i was not justified in my interpretation when I clearly was. There are other times where you could make a much better argument that i was not being honest to interpretation to the text, but this is instance is perhaps the worst one you could use as an example in my opinion, in all honesty.
As to your claim Christian, I would be entirely unaware of any errors, rather than intentionally ignoring them. I can honestly say that I have nothing that i know of in which i ignore that I know contradicts my beliefs.
I agree with you, James Trimm, to the point that is how it is to be done if indeed both those books are Scripture.
James Trimm and I are of the opinion (I assume) that divorce in Sirach and Matthew are not passages that taken literally contradict, but rather we believe that those passages simply appear to others with a false bias to be literally saying something it was never intended to say, literally or allegorically.
Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on February 19, 2011 at 9:02pm Now now, brother Andrew, don't get your knickers in a bunch. I am reasonably acquainted with Hebrew, though much moreso with Greek.
The fact of the matter is- and many others can verify this- that you will squeeze water from a rock to justify contradictions.
I have a very high opinion of many of your ideas, but this is an area in which your subjective desire (to have certain texts not contradict) outweighs the obvious (objective) nature of the facts at hand. Not being rude, just honest.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Jesse, you are unbelievable. That is something i am 10,000% convinced on, and i did not go to any extreme lengths at all. It seems you are ignorant of the language of Hebrew to suggest that i was not justified in my interpretation when I clearly was. There are other times where you could make a much better argument that i was not being honest to interpretation to the text, but this is instance is perhaps the worst one you could use as an example in my opinion, in all honesty.
As to your claim Christian, I would be entirely unaware of any errors, rather than intentionally ignoring them. I can honestly say that I have nothing that i know of in which i ignore that I know contradicts my beliefs.
I agree with you, James Trimm, to the point that is how it is to be done if indeed both those books are Scripture.
James Trimm and I are of the opinion (I assume) that divorce in Sirach and Matthew are not passages that taken literally contradict, but rather we believe that those passages simply appear to others with a false bias to be literally saying something it was never intended to say, literally or allegorically.
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on February 19, 2011 at 9:09pm
Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on February 19, 2011 at 9:35pm We'll have to see with certain examples some day perhaps.
Permalink Reply by CJC on March 6, 2011 at 4:55pm Regarding the subject:Marriage, Divorce, and YHWH: Do Matthew and Sirah contradict?
1) *Unclean Matter IN Her refers to any number of abounding consequence. sadly, in the spiral of Patriarcal rule the Hebrew woman found with burnt toast was even the recipient of divorce until the declarations of Moses against such a cruel consequence.
2) Finding some reason to of *uncleaness* could also reveal the unfidelities of the husband IF he brought home the consequence of HIS fornications to the wife of his youth. Be it manifest as thought action, word, or deed, infidelity contaminates the marriage bed, and thus defiles the sacred intent of marriage. Harmony has no pleasure in disharmony, and certainly makes for noise not music.
3) Hence, a bill of divorcement in some cases may be considered an act of mercy BECAUSE of Love.
4) In such an instance of the above case, the woman would be set free from the bondage of sin, and death perhaps from her former husbands' STD, or declarations of Lust toward another woman. Such a woman who is set apart would be observed as *free to remarry,* and NOT be considered unfaithful.
5) Much of the Law has been sadly determined to be against the woman simply because The Law for much of the ages has been offering a yield sign to the man.
6) *Perfect Love casts out the torment of fear.*
Sincerely, CJC,rebeitzen
Permalink Reply by CJC on March 6, 2011 at 5:35pm The declarations of Moses offered more than Hope for women; the inference embeded therein appropriated the inherent concern for,
1) The man so *seeking* a get without the prescribed grounds for such an action. A person already seeking some other was considered the unfaithful one NOT the wife. again; she would be set apart through an act of merciful concern would be set apart rather than chaining her to a man who did not love her any longer.
2) Infidelity contaminates; regardless of the obvious physical connections, the thought straying were condemed by The Law.
Sincerely, CJC/rebeitzen
Permalink Reply by 命 on March 6, 2011 at 5:56pm I don't recall it being written that she got a sexual disease, that is a very bold and baseless accusation against our fore-mother.
Anayahu Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
Marriage provides many more things than sexual relations. To divorce her for such i think is not right. I don't recall Yaakov divorcing Bilhah after she was given a sexual disease from Reuven.
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on March 6, 2011 at 6:00pm © 2013 Created by James Trimm.