Tags:
Permalink Reply by CJC on March 6, 2011 at 10:34pm Shalom:
Regardless pf *reason* any conseqence against a married woman is very great. Women today cannot afford to live in the shadow of The Law and be ignorant of the heavy foot of unjust societal persecution coming against them. Humanity is more than two ideals who fell in The Beginning of Creation. Society may have adopted political correctness and to the hurt of still another generation. Patriarchal *correctness could be the continued downfall of still more women if The Law is left to interpretation without a just perspective.
So, as a relief for you Andrew regarding the ifs'? and whys? of a particular couple throughout time, I have as a rebeitzen offered you a considerably gracious plausability.
1) Not every get is set in motion with the cause being sexual infidelity.
2) Many women do have lived within the walls, and consequence of abuse because no KNOWN infidelity has taken place.
3) Perspective is must become more than an ornament in in a persons' vocabulary. G-d looks at the union and disunion of two individuals with Mercy and Justice.
Sincerely, CJC/rebeitzen
Sincerely, rebeitzen
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on March 6, 2011 at 10:38pm
Permalink Reply by CJC on March 6, 2011 at 11:15pm A man when PLANS to initiate the Get with the INTENT of *marrying UP with somone else is guilty of the extra-marital intent as if he has already commited the act; extra-marital offense is not only a physical offense; the pshycological,spiritual, and financial offense can leave lasting scars.The so called *requirement* of a woman to leave the man is dependent again upon the interpretation of The Law.
Sincerely,CJusticeC/rebeitzen
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on March 6, 2011 at 11:18pm
Permalink Reply by Garth Grenache on July 19, 2012 at 9:43pm Now of course, I'm getting blocked by Trimm who only allows people to say nice things to him like how his ministry is important and how we should all send him money.
You people who know better but affirm, that you may be affirmed, be careful. What is honourable in man's eyes is abominable to the Father. Do not be united with those who teach to commit adultery through second marriages.
Trimm,
'You make yourself a teacher, and teach against Messiah's people to commit adultery,
(http://nazarenespace.com/forum/topics/marriage-divorce-and-yhwh-do?...)
and teach them that to be truly united they need to be circumcised in the flesh,
(http://nazarenespace.com/profiles/blogs/the-seven-laws-of-noah-a-be...)
And on every page you affirm your lust for money, begging us all to contribute to your false ministry.
...
YHWH will have his way with you, because some of what you say is good, but then will destroy you if you do not repent from your false teaching, your presumption and your greed.'
I am a late arriver to this discussion, here are my two cents:
* erwat is the standard euphemism for literal sexual misconduct. It is used countless times in that context in Leviticus. Such interpretation of erwat for Deut 24:1 is substantiated by Yeshua's interpretation of the matter in the Gospels.
Therefore the following conclusion drawn by the Mr. Trimm:
Allow no outlet to water,
and no boldness of speech in an evil wife.
If she does not go as you direct,
separate yourself from her.
(Ben Sira 25:25-26)
And this in no way contradicts Yeshua’s statement:
…every man that has put away, or shall put away his wife,
except it be for fornication, and takes another,
commits adultery.
(Mat. 19:19 see also 5:31-32)
This is twisting simple and plain. Yahushua's words ring true today as then, " How adroitly you set aside the command of Elohim in order to retain the your tradition." Mark 7:9
Why not just draw the simple and logical conclusion that Sirach is not inspired of God?
The Hebrew word translated “fornication” in Matt. 5:31-32; 19:3-9 is Z’NOT. This word does not only refer to “fornication”. The Hebrew word z'not can refer to sexual immorality, usually by a woman, but it can have other meanings as well. This word can refer to one who is an idolater (Lev. 17:7; 20:5-6; Deut. 31:16) or to one that goes astray from YHWH (Ps. 73:27). In fact this word can be translated “going astray”:
For, behold, they that go far from You shall perish;
You do destroy all them THAT GO ASTRAY from you.
(Ps. 73:27)
Yirmeyahu said:
I am a late arriver to this discussion, here are my two cents:
* erwat is the standard euphemism for literal sexual misconduct. It is used countless times in that context in Leviticus. Such interpretation of erwat for Deut 24:1 is substantiated by Yeshua's interpretation of the matter in the Gospels.
Therefore the following conclusion drawn by the Mr. Trimm:
Allow no outlet to water,
and no boldness of speech in an evil wife.
If she does not go as you direct,
separate yourself from her.
(Ben Sira 25:25-26)
And this in no way contradicts Yeshua’s statement:
…every man that has put away, or shall put away his wife,
except it be for fornication, and takes another,
commits adultery.
(Mat. 19:19 see also 5:31-32)This is twisting simple and plain. Yahushua's words ring true today as then, " How adroitly you set aside the command of Elohim in order to retain the your tradition." Mark 7:9
Why not just draw the simple and logical conclusion that Sirach is not inspired of God?
The verse in Sirach is saying that a woman may be dismissed if she does not attentively satisfy every command of the husband. Isn't that the jist of "go as you direct"? At worst this wording could be percieved as a justification to relegate the woman's role in marriage as that of mere servant, which in this context has no dignity.
Frankly the verses preceding this passage read as misogynistic to me, as though women are by nature more evil than men. Will we forget that men can be extremely evil too? The (human) author says that Eve was reason we all die. Scripture says her name is "mother of all life" (Chawah). Why cast blame? We are all imperfect. This words are very human in outlook.
In as much as the passage is an exhortation to choose wisely a wife it is well and good.
When it says a man may dismiss a wife for speaking boldly the fact is Yahushua says "except it be for fornication."
Obviously it is better if a wife doesn't speak outlandishly, but your reasoning clearly is that of the Pharisees, the wording of whose question belies their view, "May a man put away his wife for any cause?"
Even after your swirling of reasoning and fancy shmancy slight of hand illusive logic, the bitter is still the bitter, and the sweet is still the sweet.
In the Scriptures a man seems to be made accountable to keep his house in order. Yet you are telling me his wife can do anything under the sun just as long as she does not commit adultery and he can do nothing and must remain her husband and be held accountable for not keeping his house in order at the same time... How would that be just?
Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on July 20, 2012 at 3:45pm Let us take a look at the word "fornication" and "adultery".
Fornicate appears to mean along the lines of to pervert. Adultery appears to mean along the lines of breaking/defiling.
I take Messiah's statements that we are not to divorce except when the marriage has become perverted or defiled.
I believe the husband only has a right over familial issues, not over personal issues of his family members. Thus, a father cannot divorce his wife when it does not involve a crime against his family. If its a personal insult from a wife, he cannot divorce her. Its only when she rebels against and defies his familial authority, that is when she must be divorced. Why? Because defying your husband's authority IS adultery and IS fornication. This is my stance on the matter. But if she complains to her husband, or does some other sin against her husband that doesn't involve rebelling against his familial authority, oi do not think divorcing is just.
That is certainly one side of the coin but the other is also extremely important to keep in mind. What is written in the talmud? R. Akiva argued, 'He may divorce her even if he found another woman more beautiful than she. (Git 9:10).
Messiah's words were most likely directed at the those who apopted the leniency of the Hillelite position in order to satisfy their carnal desires after the the wife of their youth had lost her figure.
It is true, however, that at times it is perhaps advisable to break company with a marriage mate. I think if that is the case, it is only necessary to make sense of the situation to remember that we are not justified by the law, and if we happen to break a law by getting a divorce, then our salvation is not in jeopardy, because it is impossible for us to keep the law perfectly. An aberration of the law is not the end of the world, so long as you humble yourself and admit you have failed the law, and set your mind not to do it again.
It is very important to keep in mind Lev 26:40-42 for such cases.
My opinion is that it is indeed a missing of the mark to get a divorce. If necessity dictates one should divorce, then one should repent before YHWH and ask forgiveness and it will likely be given him/her.
If on the other hand you twist the words of Messiah to mean that divorce is completely legal for any cause like the Talmud and the Hilellites say, in practice you never feel any need to repent for missing the mark, and your spiritual health is weakened because in YHWH's eyes you have sinned and not repented. And that because you insist on interpreting Scriptures according the program of the Hillelites.
James Trimm said:
In the Scriptures a man seems to be made accountable to keep his house in order. Yet you are telling me his wife can do anything under the sun just as long as she does not commit adultery and he can do nothing and must remain her husband and be held accountable for not keeping his house in order at the same time... How would that be just?
I think the issue here is simply the wife who refuses to be submissive to her husband's headship.
We are not talking about arguing over the TV remote here, nor are we talking about a prettier girl.
© 2013 Created by James Trimm.