Tags:
Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on July 30, 2010 at 1:29am Hi James,
Would you consider discussing the "greater" assumption you are making about Galatians? Your premise is that Yahweh would not place a "tare teaching" in the Bible.
We know of Yahushua's parable of the wheat and tares, however, it is never considered by theologians, Christians, or most Messianics that it would be desirable and possible for Yahweh to intentially allow the enemy to plant "tares" into the Bible to test us.
Although I believe "Yahweh's Word" from his own mouth is infallible, I believe it is unreasonable to believe Paul, Saul, David, or any other man is infallible in their ability to interpret and explain the Word of Yahweh to us. As such, your premise in your writing about Galatians assumes that Paul is a true and infallible apostle of the Word and not a "Balaam" apostle. Would you be willing to change that assumption? Could or should Yahweh place a "tare" in the Bible for our benefit and His? If I could provide compelling evidence that Yahushua is referring to Paul when referring to what the enemy would do by planting "tares" among the "wheat", fulfilling the Word of the Messiah, would you be willing to discuss that "evidence"? Please let me know.
Greg
Permalink Reply by 命 on July 30, 2010 at 6:52am
Permalink Reply by 命 on July 30, 2010 at 3:03pm Christian,
You identify some valid dynamics of the mind if one holds the Bible as an idol and believes it is "perfect". The Bible has contradictions, such as Paul dropping the pronoun "My" in Hab 2:4. In those cases in which man has changed Yahweh's Word or has done a midrash that is inaccurate, then we ignore the tares in the Bible and eat only the wheat. I hold the actual Word of Yahweh as infallible, as well as His Son. Yahweh expects us to use His Spirit to discern where man has changed His Word. Yahweh is glorified by contrasting imperfect man (tares) with His perfect Word (wheat). To proclaim the Bible is perfect brings glory to man and not Yahweh. It turns the Bible itself into an idol that is worsipped. Greg Christian said:Second-guessing the words of the Bible and presuming to know better than it is the true "greater assumption", and it is completely false.
Were we to doubt the words of Paul, then we could doubt that the prophets wrote down the words of YHWH correctly, and that they were recorded faithfully through the years.
We could doubt Moses transcribed the words of YHWH and the 10 commandments correctly.
The same principle that makes Paul infallible, is the same principle that makes YHWH and ANY part of His word (the Bible) infallible.
Job thought he knew better than God, that he could judge God and His words - but he could not.
Yaqov / James 4:11
"When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it."
YHWH has preserved His people through the ages, and though small and vulnerable, they have never been destroyed, and never been invaded/attacked outside of His plan.
YHWH did not allow a single bone in Yeshua's body to be broken, outside of His plan and timeframe.
YHWH has preserved and protected His words.
James and whoever,
When we read about Paul publicly accusing Peter of wrongdoing in Galations chapter 2, should we accept his testimony on the basis of his letter alone without hearing Peter's side of the situation? Don't we need more than one witness to condemn someone of wrongdoing? Peter did not agree with Paul and his accusation, otherwise, Paul would have written, "Peter agreed with me."
Secondly, Paul reads "motive" into Peter's heart for withdrawing from the Gentiles, accusing him of "fearing" what others might think of him, a subjective conclusion from Paul, but Peter does not confirm his conclusion. Rather, Peter just walked away from Paul, apparently, in silence. If that is what happened, what do we do with the accusation of Paul? Do we believe it?
Isn't Paul technically "talebearing" contrary to Torah and breaking the laws of love? What if Peter withdrew because the brethren (the Jews) told him the food they were eating was sacrificed to idols, but Paul didn't take the time to know the real reason for Peter withdrawing, but misjudged him, since Paul didn't have a problem with eating food from the marketplace that was offered to idols?
If we believe Paul's accusation without another witness, and without hearing Peter's side of the story, are we not breaking Torah for listening to a talebearer?
Galatians only summarizes the story, certainly does not give us enough info to second guess Paul. Greg Olson said:James and whoever,
When we read about Paul publicly accusing Peter of wrongdoing in Galations chapter 2, should we accept his testimony on the basis of his letter alone without hearing Peter's side of the situation? Don't we need more than one witness to condemn someone of wrongdoing? Peter did not agree with Paul and his accusation, otherwise, Paul would have written, "Peter agreed with me." Secondly, Paul reads "motive" into Peter's heart for withdrawing from the Gentiles, accusing him of "fearing" what others might think of him, a subjective conclusion from Paul, but Peter does not confirm his conclusion. Rather, Peter just walked away from Paul, apparently, in silence. If that is what happened, what do we do with the accusation of Paul? Do we believe it?
Isn't Paul technically "talebearing" contrary to Torah and breaking the laws of love? What if Peter withdrew because the brethren (the Jews) told him the food they were eating was sacrificed to idols, but Paul didn't take the time to know the real reason for Peter withdrawing, but misjudged him, since Paul didn't have a problem with eating food from the marketplace that was offered to idols?
If we believe Paul's accusation without another witness, and without hearing Peter's side of the story, are we not breaking Torah for listening to a talebearer?
Permalink Reply by 命 on August 1, 2010 at 3:23am
Permalink Reply by 命 on August 1, 2010 at 2:42pm Christian,
Agag was not an Apostle who lived with the Messiah, but Peter was.
Greg
Christian said:"When we read about Paul publicly accusing Peter of wrongdoing in Galations chapter 2, should we accept his testimony on the basis of his letter alone without hearing Peter's side of the situation? Don't we need more than one witness to condemn someone of wrongdoing?"
Double standard.
Why should we trust that Samuel was justified in killing king Agag?
Shouldn't we hear king Agag's story?
And why should we trust that Yeshua was without sin?
OF COURSE the bible is going to say that.
Permalink Reply by 命 on August 2, 2010 at 4:36am
Permalink Reply by Brian Forbes on August 12, 2010 at 1:43pm
Permalink Reply by Dave Delgado on August 16, 2010 at 6:48pm James,
It's an assumption that Peter agreed with Paul. It assumes Yahweh doesn't put "tares" in the Bible to test us. The text does not say Peter repented of anything. The conclusion is based on one witness, Paul. To think Peter would withdraw from the table based on the reasons Paul gives, in my opinion, is unreasonable and boarders on the absurd. Based on Paul's emotional reactions to make judgments based on feelings, and not facts, which is clear from his writings, he more likely misjudged Peter, rather than Peter committing such a gross error/sin that he claims. So the issue is that if Peter just walked away, then what Paul did was talebearing and our reading his accusations about Peter is much more than "harmless".
Greg
James Trimm said:Also our reading it is harmless to the fact. The event occurred in public as well as the rebuke, none of it was ever private information. I believe Kefa acknowledged and repented, thus Paul had acted properly in stoping a Sin that was occurring rather than allowing it to continue so he could address it privately later, damage was being done.
James Trimm said:Galatians only summarizes the story, certainly does not give us enough info to second guess Paul. Greg Olson said:James and whoever,
When we read about Paul publicly accusing Peter of wrongdoing in Galations chapter 2, should we accept his testimony on the basis of his letter alone without hearing Peter's side of the situation? Don't we need more than one witness to condemn someone of wrongdoing? Peter did not agree with Paul and his accusation, otherwise, Paul would have written, "Peter agreed with me." Secondly, Paul reads "motive" into Peter's heart for withdrawing from the Gentiles, accusing him of "fearing" what others might think of him, a subjective conclusion from Paul, but Peter does not confirm his conclusion. Rather, Peter just walked away from Paul, apparently, in silence. If that is what happened, what do we do with the accusation of Paul? Do we believe it?
Isn't Paul technically "talebearing" contrary to Torah and breaking the laws of love? What if Peter withdrew because the brethren (the Jews) told him the food they were eating was sacrificed to idols, but Paul didn't take the time to know the real reason for Peter withdrawing, but misjudged him, since Paul didn't have a problem with eating food from the marketplace that was offered to idols?
If we believe Paul's accusation without another witness, and without hearing Peter's side of the story, are we not breaking Torah for listening to a talebearer?
© 2013 Created by James Trimm.