Karaite Judaism is Anti-Hebraic-Roots

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 9, 2012 at 12:32am

Take note that in Ephesians and 1st Corinthians Paul addresses "you who were formerly Gentiles" (Eph. 2:11; 1Cor. 12:2)

Former Gentiles are Jews by definition. 

James Trimm said:

I do not think you understand what a "Gentile" is in Biblical terms.

A Jew is any person who enters into the Mosaic Covenant (as in Esther 8:17) and a Gentile is a non-Jew.

A Gentile is a non-Jew (as in Num. 23:9).

SO a Gentile is a person who has chosen to live outside of YHWH's Torah (instruction). 

Now we do not hate Gentiles, but we do hate Torah rejection.

Just like we do not hate homosexuals, but we do hate homosexuality.

So while we do not hate Gentiles, you might say that we rightfully hate GENTILISM.

John said:

Agreed!  It is equally odd for Jews to hate Gentiles as it is for Gentiles to hate Jews.
 
James Trimm said:

How odd of God to choose the Jews,

But not so odd as those who choose,

The Jewish God and hate the Jews.

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 9, 2012 at 1:05am

Well HISTORY has it both ways.  The Talmud contains the Oral Law.

The Oral Law consists of two parts:

Oral Law from Sinai which was given to Moses at Sinai,  This contained information like how to ritually slaughter an animal (see Deut. 12:21) and what constitutes going out of ones "place" on the Shabbat (Ex. 16:29) defining what a Sabbath day's Journey is (Acts 1:12) etc.

The second kind of Oral Law is the judgements of the Elders (Deut. 17:8-13) which the Torah itself calls "Torah" (Deut. 17:11)

The Judgements of the Elders may not conflict with the written Torah (Matt. 15) and may be broken into two catagories by Nazarenes: Those made before Yeshua gave the authority to make such judgements to his Talmidim (Matt. 16:13-20 & 18:15-20) and those made afterward. 

Those made before are binding, but those made after by Rabbinic Judaism are up for review by the Nazarene Beit Din.

It is about those made AFTER that the fourth century Nazarene commentary to Isaiah speaks in objection. 

Yeshua could not have been speaking about the Talmud to the people of his time, because they had never seen one, it would not exist for centuries and would include hundreds of rulings that had not even been made yet.

I thought I had already covered all of this in this thread in my previous posts... .

John said:

You cannot have it both ways James.  First, you claim that the Talmud contains oral doctrines that date back hundreds of years before the time it was written down.  Then, you say that the Talmud was written down 500 years after so it cannot contain these oral doctrines passed down from generation to generation.

Also,  Rabbinic Judaism is very proud of the fact that they can trace their lineage all the way back to the second temple and first century Pharisees.  It is a fact of history that modern day Rabbinic Judaism is descended from first century Pharisaism and both have their doctrines written down in the Mishnah/Talmud.

Thirdly,  I don't recall using the term "oral law".
 
James Trimm said:

Ridiculous!  The Talmud would not be written for nearly 500 years!

You are using circular reasoning.  Even you admit that only false doctrines can be meant, because there are many Pharisaic doctrines we would all embrace.  So your conclusion that the Oral Law is the false doctrine Yeshua referred to is based on a premise that the Oral Law is a false doctrine.  You are chasing your tail.

John said:

Matthew 16

 ⁶Then Yahshua said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

  ¹²Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

From these 2 scriptures, it is very clear that Nazarenes should not embrace the false doctrines of the Pharisees ie. Rabbinic false doctrines written down in the Talmud.

End of Story!

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Permalink Reply by Frank Barbour on April 9, 2012 at 1:22am

You said: " Thank you for your words.  "

- and, You're welcome.

You then said: " Please, don't make the same mistake as Beryl and assume I am a Christian either.  "

- and, I haven't. Contrary to popular opinion, I Don't Pre-Judge Anyone! After all, my own experiences have continually shown me, that those who do so Are Generally Wrong. Besides, ' It's Our Father's Own Prerogative To Judge And Not Ours! '

If I have come across somewhat harsh to you, then I am sorry! However, at times, you seem to come across as overly harsh upon those others... and, I thought that you might not be honestly aware of it. There is often a very fine line between: Speaking The Truth In Spiritual Edification and Doing So Out Of Personal Contempt... and, I myself well understand it, having been at the receiving end upon numerous occasions!

You see, those who are spiritually blinded, cannot honestly help themselves - for how they are acting... but, those whose own eyes have been opened - must be held to a much higher standard. This is not to say, that Yahshua Himself actually held back The Truth; but rather, He didn't club them to death with it either! In fact, they [ truthfully ] hated Him, precisely because of The Truth - that He Himself had spoken. But, had He remained solidly Upon That One Topic, He wouldn't have gained any following at all! For all of us, have fallen short of: " The Fullness And Stature Of Yahshua "... and, indeed, some of us never reach Spiritual Maturity - at all.

If it's necessary and relevant to the discussion, then feel free to do so... but, bear in mind, not to linger too long upon such topics. No ' Good ' can result from it! The Truly Blinded won't be listening; and it only stirs up more strife.

Shalom.

John said:

Frank,

Thank you for your words.  Please, don't make the same mistake as Beryl and assume I am a Christian either.

I consider myself a Yahwist and like you only follow His word to the best of my ability with the help of the Helper.

Shalom Brother!
 
Frank Barbour said:

@ John.

While Beryl Ignorantly Condemns Me for being ' Some Form Of Anti-Semitic Christian ', when I most certainly am not... You Have Come To My Own Defense, with far too much enthusiasm towards The Critical Judgment Of Others!  Meanwhile, it has become obvious that neither of you can truthfully perceive The True Amount Of Spiritual Balance, that I [ myself ] factually represent. You see, I have absolutely refused to take either: The Red [ Christian Sun Worship ], or Blue Pills [ Formulaic Kabbalism ] - being offered by Spiritual Babylon [ aka, The Matrix Created By Lucifer The Grand Architect ].

The: " Straight And Narrow Path [ as referred to by, Yahshua ] ", " The Middle Path [ as referenced by, Solomon ] ", and/or " The Way That Veers Neither To The Left Nor The Right [ as mentioned by, Isaiah ] " - never embraces Any Of The Extremes being offered up by: Political and Spiritual Babylon! After all, once you've taken their baits, The Architect Then Firmly Controls You....

What Beryl Fails To Realize, is what I have repeatedly and consistently told her throughout all of my own postings... that, " I Am Not A Christian! " In fact, there is no conceivable way that I could be... why not carefully examine that picture to your right. Do you notice anything [ at all ] about it? The Fool: stands upon the edge of the cliff, basks in the blessings of Lucifer, wears those garments of Paganized Sun-Worship, and does so completely oblivious to His Own Precarious Spiritual Condition....

You see, Christianity Is A Counterfeit Religion and Founded Upon Numerous Half-Truths! Like all counterfeits, it only bears enough of a resemblance to The Truth to fool those who are: Extremely Foolish, Truly Unobservant, and Spiritually Inattentative. As Verizon Wireless would honestly say: " That's How They Getcha... " and, indeed, it is founded firmly upon the grounds of: " Licentiousness [ The Red Pill Of The Matrix, or The Leftward Path Of Babylon ] "!

But, of course: " Legalism Is The Exact Opposite Of Licentiousness [ Its Own Bi-Polar Equivalent ] "... and, The Deadened Teachings Of Kabbalism are the structural foundations for it! And, those that follow The Lifeless Teachings Of Kabbalism are the: " Rotten Figs " - spoken of by Yahweh Himself to the prophet Isaiah. You see, they aren't any better off for having done so.

Consequently, I Follow The Spirit Of Yahweh Alone - walking [ quite literally ]: " Straight Up The Middle "... and, thereby following: His Scriptures, His Words, His Commandments, and His Teachings... since, I Can Honestly Do No Other! While, I am neither: Anti-Christian, nor Anti-Semitic... I am not: Pro-Christian or Pro-Semitic - either. I am merely: Open Minded, Studious Of Everything Around Me, Tremendously Honest, and Inherently Truthful -  to everyone that I encounter equally!

But, The Problem is, merely, that ' The Truth ' itself hurts other people's feelings - since, they themselves, are not spiritually prepared for it yet... and, they never will be, As Long As They Keep Taking Those Pills! Thus, I have arrived at: " A Catch-22 Situation " - while witnessing, to both of these groups, neither one appears to comprehend what I'm saying. I might as well be speaking An Unknown Human Language, considering that everyone seems to fixate upon what they themselves want to perceive... and since, perceiving The Truth is never one of those options!

John said:

Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism have a causeless hatred for true Nazarenes.

Their hatred and animosity are completely uncalled for. As Pilate himself observed, it is completely unjustified. It is a reasonless, baseless hatred.

Yet the Jewish Talmud states that the reason for the destruction of the Second Temple in the time of Vespacian, in 70 A.D., was because of the "great hatred."

As Arthur Hertzberg writes in his book,  Judaism:

"The First Temple was destroyed because of the sin of idolatry, sexual licentiousness and murder....But during the time of the Second Temple, the people were engaged in the study of Torah, and the performance of commandments and deeds of loving kindness. Why, then, was the Second Temple destroyed? Because the people were guilty of GROUNDLESS HATRED. This teaches that the sin of groundless hatred is considered to be as grave as the sins of idolatry, sexual licentiousness and murder" (p. 253; passage quoted from Yoma 9b).

The Jewish nation was shattered, and the people scattered into the four winds for almost 2,000 years, for a very great reason. The Jewish leaders fell into a grave error and committed a great sin and brought not only the blood of Yahshua the Messiah on their heads, but also that of many other martyrs, including James, the brother of the Messiah.

The Jews had plenty of warning and ample opportunity to repent, and change their ways.  But they chose to scorn the Messiah and cling to their self-serving traditions. In so doing, they brought the wrath of Yahweh upon their heads. But the time has come for reconciliation and for forgiveness of past sins, and extending of the hand in friendship, love, harmony, and peace. Yahshua said in Matthew 5, "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God".  Shalom!

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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on April 9, 2012 at 1:51am

To honestly Condemn: A False System, A False Statement, False Teaching, False Spirit, or False Understanding - is not the same thing as ' Condemning The Person Who Still So Foolishly Adheres To It '!

 

--reply: please define clearly enough what is...

... A False System
... A False Statement
... A False Teaching
... A False Spirit
... False Understanding

else you are the one Who Still So Foolishly Adheres To Falsehood.
 

 

Consequently, you still misunderstand: Me, My Own Motives, and My Commentary. Tragic though it is, Human Perceptions can often be very deceptive....

--reply: sorry, i cannot be easily deceived: aside from the crystal mind The Holy One (BH) gave to his servant, i too have the Holy Spirit with me. (what makes you think you have obtained monopoly of the Holy Gift?) rather, take a look at your words, meditate on them, for these are those that speak openly what is hidden in your heart.

 

 

By the way, Yahweh Himself isn't Jewish. He created everyone equally... and scripture relates, Yahshua was The Second Adam!

 
--reply: is it so? and what about His Son who became Son of Man?

   that statement is utter foolishness if not deception, "Hashem is Himself isn't Jewish".

   who is making the claim that He Is? ... no one.

   but, the deceiver wishes to imply into the mind of the reader that Yeshua is not Jewish,

   a simple rhetorical trick, but we shall not allow the devil to go unpunished.

 
--what about these:
 
... "i will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren" (Deut. 18:18)

      --among the amalekites?

... "The sefer toldot of Yeshua, ben David, ben Abraham." (Mt. 1:1)

      --is He a son of gentile?

 

... it is written "Iesu Nasranii Rex Iudaerum" -INRI. (Mt. 27:37)

      --does it make Him a german?
 

 

enough of your deceptions. get behind me S-t-n.

 

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 9, 2012 at 2:04am

>"Hashem is Himself isn't Jewish"

Really...

 

1.  The deity of Messiah is very easy to show from the Scriptures. The simplest way to show the deity of Messiah in the Scriptures is to point to instances where the “New Testament” quotes passages from the Tanak (“Old Testament”) and applies them to the Messiah.

For example in John 19:37, Zech. 12:10 is quoted:

But when they came to Yeshua, they saw that he was dead already
and did not break his legs.
But one of the soldiers stuck him in his side with a spear
and immediately blood and water came forth,…
For these things happened that the scripture might be fulfilled
which said, A bone of him will not be broken.(Ps. 34:21(20))
And again another scripture that said, They will look at him
whom they pierced. (Zech 12:10)

But now let us look at Zechariah 12:10 in context:

The burden of the word of YHWH concerning Israel.
The saying of YHWH, who stretched forth the heavens,
And laid the foundation of the earth,
And formed the spirit of man within him…
I will pour out upon the house of David,
And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
The spirit of grace and supplication;
And they shall look at Me whom they pierced;
And they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son….
(Zech. 12:1, 10)

The one being pierced in Jn. 19:37 is clearly Yeshua but the one being pierced in Zech. 12:10 is clearly YHWH.

Lets now look at the quotation of Is. 8:14 in Rom. 9:32:

Because it was not from faith but from “Works of the Law”,
for they stumbled at the stumbling stone.
(Rom. 9:32)

Now Paul is clearly referring here it Messiah, but lets now look at Is. 8:14 in context:

YHWH of hosts, Him shall you sanctify; and let Him be your
fear, and let Him be your dread. And He shall be for a sanctuary;
but for a stumbling stone and for a rock of offence
to both the houses of Israel…
(Is. 8:13-14)

Here it is clearly YHWH who is the “stumbling stone”.

OK now lets look at Phil. 2:10-11:

That at the name of Yeshua every knee will bow
that is in heaven or on earth and that is under the earth,
and every tongue will confess that Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH,
to the glory of Eloah the Father.

Here Paul clearly refer to Is. 45:23:

Thus says YHWH…
That unto Me every knee shall bow,
and every tongue shall swear.
(Is. 45:1, 23)

Clearly Paul applies a Tanak passage which clearly speaks of YHWH to the Messiah.

Now lets look at Rom. 10:9, 13:

And if you confess with your mouth our Adon Yeshua,
And you believe in your heart that Eloah raised him from the dead,
you will be saved. …
For all who will call on the name of YHWH will be saved.
(Rom. 10:9, 13)

Here Paul clearly quotes Joel 3:5 (2:32) but applies the passage to Yeshua despite the fact that Joel is clearly here speaking of YHWH.

There are several other examples: James 5:7 clearly speaks of the coming of Messiah as likened to the “former and latter rain” while in Hosea 6:3 this is clearly the coming of YHWH. Likewise Jude 1:14 & 1 Thes. 3:13 refer to the coming of Messiah yet quote 1Enoch 1:9 & Zech. 14:5 which clearly refer to the coming of YHWH. Finally in Mt. 22:41-46 Yeshua himself identifies himself with the “YHWH” at the right hand of “YHWH” in Ps. 110:1-2, 5.

2.  The resurrected Messiah in his exalted place in the heavens is still Jewish:

5 And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep. Behold the Lion, from the tribe of
Y'hudah, the root of David, is worthy. He will open the book and its seals.

(Rev. 5:5)

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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on April 9, 2012 at 2:25am

2.  The resurrected Messiah in his exalted place in the heavens is still Jewish:

5 And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep. Behold the Lion, from the tribe of
Y'hudah, the root of David, is worthy. He will open the book and its seals.

(Rev. 5:5)

--very clear indeed James.

  but the problem with these type is that all they want is their way

  into the bible. they cannot perceive any other

  interpretation when it tends to refute their belief.

  so that good explanation is of no use to these men.

  i don't take them seriously anymore. unless maybe

  if i have luxury of time.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Frank Barbour on April 9, 2012 at 8:36pm

A False System:

" An organized set of doctrines, ideas, or principles usually intended to explain the arrangement or working of a systematic whole - that are Patently False. "

For instance, The False Systems Of: Spiritual Babylon, Atheism, and Her Other Wholly Controlled Abominations.

A False Statement:

" Something stated: as a singular declaration or remark, and/or a report of facts or opinions - that is Patently False. "

For instance, The False Statements that: " Sunday Is The Sabbath Day ", or: " The Feast Days Have Been Done Away With ".

A False Teaching:

" Something taught: especially with respect towards Theology or Doctrine - that is Patently False. "

For instance, The False Teachings of: A Trinity, The Rapture, etc....

A False Spirit:

 " A supernatural being or essence that enters and possesses a human being; a temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated; the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person; the activating or essential principle influencing a person; or an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind - that is of: A Personally Negative, or even Destructive Nature. "

For instance, The False Spirits of: Overriding Fear, Hatred, Resentment, Envy, Greed, and [ even ] Haughtiness.

A False Understanding:

" A poor mental grasp either due to: incomplete comprehension, or an erroneous conclusion - based upon the facts being largely presented. " 

For instance, The False Understanding that: " Man can abrogate or abridge any of Yahweh's Own Fundamental Laws without reaping the equivalent consequences for doing so - whether in matters of: Religion, Science, Economics, Mathematics, Politics, etc.... "

Get it, now?

"beryl etanah said:

To honestly Condemn: A False System, A False Statement, False Teaching, False Spirit, or False Understanding - is not the same thing as ' Condemning The Person Who Still So Foolishly Adheres To It '!

 

--reply: please define clearly enough what is...

... A False System
... A False Statement
... A False Teaching
... A False Spirit
... False Understanding

else you are the one Who Still So Foolishly Adheres To Falsehood.
 

 

Consequently, you still misunderstand: Me, My Own Motives, and My Commentary. Tragic though it is, Human Perceptions can often be very deceptive....

--reply: sorry, i cannot be easily deceived: aside from the crystal mind The Holy One (BH) gave to his servant, i too have the Holy Spirit with me. (what makes you think you have obtained monopoly of the Holy Gift?) rather, take a look at your words, meditate on them, for these are those that speak openly what is hidden in your heart.

 

 

By the way, Yahweh Himself isn't Jewish. He created everyone equally... and scripture relates, Yahshua was The Second Adam!

 
--reply: is it so? and what about His Son who became Son of Man?

   that statement is utter foolishness if not deception, "Hashem is Himself isn't Jewish".

   who is making the claim that He Is? ... no one.

   but, the deceiver wishes to imply into the mind of the reader that Yeshua is not Jewish,

   a simple rhetorical trick, but we shall not allow the devil to go unpunished.

 
--what about these:
 
... "i will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren" (Deut. 18:18)

      --among the amalekites?

... "The sefer toldot of Yeshua, ben David, ben Abraham." (Mt. 1:1)

      --is He a son of gentile?

 

... it is written "Iesu Nasranii Rex Iudaerum" -INRI. (Mt. 27:37)

      --does it make Him a german?
 

 

enough of your deceptions. get behind me S-t-n.

 

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Permalink Reply by John on April 12, 2012 at 12:24pm

I do not know of any Messianic believers who became Karaites, but I do find it interesting what James said about Rabbinic Jews:

"The anti-Missionaries are Rabbinic Jews who specialize in arguing that Yeshua is not the Messiah in an effort to convince Jews not to accept Yeshua as the Messiah, or to reject him if they already have accepted him as Messiah.  Two such organizations are "Outreach Judaism" (Tovia Singer) and "Jews for Judaism". "

T. J. (Mordecai) Mitchell said:

Nehemiah Gordon and his fellow Karaites seem to like to cozy up to various groups of Messianic believers and in turn, these groups seem to be taken under his spell. However, I have made one observation: I do not know of a single case where a Karaite has come to believe in Messiah, however, I personally know of several former believers who have ended up denying the Messiah and joining this so-called Karaite Judaism movement. What is Gordon's agenda? I think it's plain to see.    

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 12, 2012 at 12:33pm

The point is that Rabbinic Jews are upfront and you know where you stand... Karaites are just underhanded in sneak in among believers unawares.

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Permalink Reply by John on April 12, 2012 at 10:12pm

Is that your own unbiased opinion?  LOL

I have not met one of those, but even if I did it wouldn't make a difference in my emuna.

I think anyone whether Rabbinic Jew or Karaite Jew that turns one from Messiah is equally guilty.

Shalom!

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 12, 2012 at 11:01pm

The issue is not guilt, but rather danger... The stumbling block you know is there is less dangerous than the one that you do not know is there.

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Permalink Reply by Frank Barbour on April 13, 2012 at 2:41am

The Biggest Problem cannot be solved by creating A List Of Rabbinical Interpretations - no matter how: Accurate, Long, Detailed, or [ inherently ] Complex - even, as they still continue to evolve! Mainly, because human beings will continually adapt to The Letter Of All Codified Laws, while equally avoiding The Spirit Who Honestly Provides It.

Ergo, The Talmud Itself stands completely in the way of Factually Exercising Yahweh's True Love! We have been commanded to: " Worship In Spirit [ Base Our Own Decisions Upon True Love For Others ] And In Truth [ And Then Doing What We Already Know Is Factually Right ] " -, but instead, we [ as fallen human beings ] merely want Codified Guidelines - so that we may, continually, seek to work around them. And yet, to Yahweh, this is totally unsatisfactory!

In the end, isn't that quite-honestly ' The Truth ', James?

Legalism and Licentiousness are both [ equally ]: Opposing Positions To A True Walk With Yahweh! While you might feel superior to those Ignorant Sun Worshipers, it is plainly just as disobedient to follow after Kabbalism. Why do you think He called it: " The Straight And Narrow Path " - anyway?

That's my take upon it.... But, what's yours?

James Trimm said:

The issue is not guilt, but rather danger... The stumbling block you know is there is less dangerous than the one that you do not know is there.

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