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I have yet to hear a good explanation about the following two verses.  My brother became an agnostic over this discrepancy, and to this day i do not have a good answer for him.  Every explanation i've heard from both Messianicism and Christianity has thus far been lame.

 

 

II Samuel (Shem'el Bet)  24:1 AFNHSS

And the anger of YHWH was moved against Y'sra'el and he moved Dawud against them to say, "Go number Y'sra'el and Yahudah"

 

 

Dibre HaYamim Alef (First Chronicles) 21:1 AFNHSS

And Shaitan stood up against Y'sra'el  and provoked Dawud to number Y'sra'el.

 

 

II Samuel 24:1  HRV

And the anger of YHWH was kindled against Yisrael, and he moved David against them, saying:  "Go number Yisra'el and Y'hudah."

 

 

I Chron 21:1  HRV
And HaSatan stood up against Yisra'el and moved David to number Yisra'el.

 

In both verses it clearly says who is against Y'sra'el  In II Shmu'el, it says that YHWH was moved against Y'srael, but in I Chron it says that Shaitan stood up against Y'sra'el.   In II Schmu'el, it says that YHWH moved Dawud against Y'sra'el.  But in II Chronicles it says Shaitan move Dawud to number Y'sra'el.  Torah requires two witnesses.  These are two mutually exclusive witnesses.  My suspicion is that in II Samuel there is something going on with the Hebrew grammar unbeknownst to us who don't know much Hebrew: specifically what the English versions show as "and he".   Is the "he" there referring to Dawud?  Can the "and" have other meanings than "and"?   Was something removed from either of the originals of the verses?  Was something added to either of the verses?   Are there any clues in the DSS or Targum?

 

 

Tags: David, Dawud, Israel, Y'sra'el, YHWH, Yisrael, kindled, moved, provoked, satan, More…shaitan

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It's the same case with Judas: John describes Satan's influence on Judas, the other versions omit Satan and simply describe what Judas was lead to do (by Satan, as we know from John;) ultimately, we compare with Job's story - was it Satan or God who afflicted him? Could Satan do anything but by God's explicit permission?
Job didn't complain to God about Satan, he went directly to God with his grief, without mentioning Satan who supposedly did it all, and YHWH never defends himself by saying "it wasn't me, it was Satan."
the first one being written by a great Prophet, upon writing Shemu'el saw G-d moving upon melek Dovid. the second one being written by a mere secular scribe this one sees nothing more beyond the sphere of secular events: seeing it resulted in great calamity the scribe had reason to ascribe it to haShatan, after all, a chronicler of events is not obliged to claim inspiration.

both writings are not Torah. nothing is seriously questionable here, they are mere separate accounts from separate perspectives. not worth becoming agnostic. :)

hi Yaacov! shabbat shalom.

. This is an idiom by which an active verb is used in connection with YHWH, not to say that He did something, but actually to say that he ALLOWED it to happen in his sovereignty over the universe. I will not give you one example of this idiom in the Scriptures, I will give you seven (the number of perfection):

 

“lead us not into temptation” (Mt. 6:13a) – Compare with “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by Elohim’ for Elohim cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.” (James 1:13-14) (I covered the usage of this idiom here in my HRV version Scriptures in a footnote, as well as in my Commentary to Matthew http://nazarenespace.com/page/books-dvds )

 

“For this cause Elohim shall send them strong delusion…” (2Thes. 2:11)

 

“…Elohim gave them up to uncleanness… Elohim gave them up to vile affections…” (Romans 1:24-26) – If you read the context of these verses you will see that it is an example of YHWH allowing people in his sovereignty to violate the “male and female” Yesod HaBriah (Principle of Creation)

 

“These are they whom YHWH has sent to and fro through the earth.” (Zech. 1:10b) (The “they” in context are horses which represent the 70 year Babylonian captivity (see Zech. 1:8-12).

 

“Surely You [YHWH] have greatly deceived this people…” (Jer. 4:10)

 

“I [YHWH] will harden his heart” (Ex. 4:21) - In Rom. 9:17-18 Paul refers to Elohim's sovereignty when he hardened Pharaoh's heart. Paul here quotes Ex. 9:16 and is referring to the material in Ex. 9:15-17. The Calvanist misunderstanding here comes from a lack of understanding the idiom Biblical Hebrew. In the case of Pharaoh we have a man who was not a believer (Ex. 5:2) and who hardenened his own heart (Ex. 8:11, 15, 28; 9:7). Paul simply refers to this story to show that Elohim had the sovereign right to allow Pharaoh to harden his own heart of his own freewill. This concept is also taught in the Talmud: In the way in which a man wishes to walk he is guided. (b.Mak. 10b) If one goes to defile himself, openings are made for him; and if he goes to purify himself, help is afforded him. (b.Shabb. 104a) If a man defiles himself a little, he becomes much defiled: [if he defile himself] below, he becomes defiled from above; if he defile himself in this world, he becomes defiled in the world to come. Our Rabbis taught: Sanctify yourselves, therefore, and be ye holy: If a man sanctify himself a little, he becomes much sanctified. [If he sanctify himself] below, he becomes sanctified from above; if he sanctify himself in this world, he becomes sanctified in the world to come. (b.Yoma 39a) Elohim, has the sovereign right to further harden the heart of the man who has chosen himself to harden his heart. This does not conflict with freewill, it is an amplification of freewill. (This material has been extracted from my book Nazarene Theology, which also discusses the Hebrew idiom in its treatment http://nazarenespace.com/page/books-dvds.)

 

“And again the anger of YHWH was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2Sam. 24:1) - I have saved the best example for last… here was are also dealing with David and told that YHWH moved David to number Israel… but wait, the parallel passage in 1Chon. 21:1 says “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” Atheists and Muslims claim this is a “contradiction” in the Bible, but it is just another example of the idiom, YHWH in his sovereignty ALLOWED Satan to provoke David.

Note also that Job didn't even think to mention the Sabeans who attacked his family; he knew that God was behind it all.
You could argue that Job wasn't aware of Satan's involvement, being an invisible spirit; but this argument does not cover the Sabeans, being humans, visible.



Solomon said:

It's the same case with Judas: John describes Satan's influence on Judas, the other versions omit Satan and simply describe what Judas was lead to do (by Satan, as we know from John;) ultimately, we compare with Job's story - was it Satan or God who afflicted him? Could Satan do anything but by God's explicit permission?
Job didn't complain to God about Satan, he went directly to God with his grief, without mentioning Satan who supposedly did it all, and YHWH never defends himself by saying "it wasn't me, it was Satan."

Satan in hebrew does not always refer to evil devil but refers more literally to someone in opposition does it not?

 

so then, Yahuwah was the satan/opposer of Israel and moved David to do a census.  It was not wrong to take a census, nor did David sin by taking the census, or as kings says, the only sin David committed was wronging Uriah with murder and adultery.  but David did commit chata accidentally when he did the census without the offering.  now one must wonder whether God wanted David to accidently mess the census up, or if God wanted something to happen with the census, but David messed it up?  Or maybe its a summary of the event saying God's anger came against Israel when He called David to make a census and David messed up; that is probably much more likely.

 

there is no other way of correctly explaining the variance except from the basis of the writer. as i have said one writer is a prophet, he of course sees G-d doing it; the other one is not a prophet and has no way of seeing G-d in the event.

 

and Anayahu be careful with your utterance. you are syllabizing His Ineffable Name and ascribing Him the name of His enemy: you will not stay long unpunished for this Anayahu.

 

i set my self at distance with you and your idle thoughts and words. i do not share even little of your demonic ideas. i condemn it.

 

 

 

bring your strong lexicon in the last day, justify your self before the Great Judge.

 

as for us, there is no proper way of applying the name השטן but Adversary of the Most High, but never HIM.

 

In the Bible, God's primary angel is called "adversary" at least once, because he acted as an adversary to God's enemy Balaam (who was going to try to aid the wicked Balak.)




Nevertheless, this is not the case in Shmuel / Devarim.
God did it all, Satan was an incidental vessel in achieving it.


beryl etanah said:

 

there is no other way of correctly explaining the variance except from the basis of the writer. as i have said one writer is a prophet, he of course sees G-d doing it; the other one is not a prophet and has no way of seeing G-d in the event.

 

and Anayahu be careful with your utterance. you are syllabizing His Ineffable Name and ascribing Him the name of His enemy: you will not stay long unpunished for this Anayahu.

 

i set my self at distance with you and your idle thoughts and words. i do not share even little of your demonic ideas. i condemn it.

 

 

Doesn't this presume that God didn't inspire (all of) the Bible, and that he didn't directly dictate or determine the wording ?

I don't like to presume ignorance or non-inspiration (or inspired ignorance, for that matter) on the part of the scripture-writers.

beryl etanah said:

 

there is no other way of correctly explaining the variance except from the basis of the writer. as i have said one writer is a prophet, he of course sees G-d doing it; the other one is not a prophet and has no way of seeing G-d in the event.

 


 

 

So getting back to the original question,  then the more accurate translation for II Samuel 21:1 would then be something like this?:
 "And the anger of YHWH was moved against Y'sra'el and He gave Dawud up to his own devices to go against them to say, 'Go number Y'sra'el and Yahudah'"

 

 

I would say the better translation of your interpretation if you are still going for a non super literalistic translation where liberties are tkane in translation all the time would be "And the anger of YHWH was moved against Y'sra'el when He empowered/enabled Dawud against them to say, 'Go number Y'sra'el and Yahudah'"

 

solomon,

check your adversary, it is small "a"; mine is capital "A".

why?

because i am talking about השטן the Adversary of G-d. if you are of those like Anayahu who conveniently applies the name to anything anytime then so be it. i have called Anayahu's attention that it is not a godly mannerism to do. if you feel you have the right to do it on account of your deep knowledge then do it.

 


Solomon said:

In the Bible, God's primary angel is called "adversary" at least once, because he acted as an adversary to God's enemy Balaam (who was going to try to aid the wicked Balak.)




Nevertheless, this is not the case in Shmuel / Devarim.
God did it all, Satan was an incidental vessel in achieving it.


beryl etanah said:

 

there is no other way of correctly explaining the variance except from the basis of the writer. as i have said one writer is a prophet, he of course sees G-d doing it; the other one is not a prophet and has no way of seeing G-d in the event.

 

and Anayahu be careful with your utterance. you are syllabizing His Ineffable Name and ascribing Him the name of His enemy: you will not stay long unpunished for this Anayahu.

 

i set my self at distance with you and your idle thoughts and words. i do not share even little of your demonic ideas. i condemn it.

 

 

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