Nazarene Space

Hi there,

My question is how you define "Jewish" (leaving aside distinctions such as Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Karaite, or secular Jews, etc.). I personally would simply distinguish between ethnical Jews and/or spiritual Jews - as for me, I belong to the latter group (Romans 2:29).   

As per Yochanan 3:5 and Acts 2:38, conversion entails being born again of water & spirit (immersed in both), which leads us back to the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh manifested in tongues whenever [ethnical] Jews or Gentiles were converted (Acts 2:4; Acts 10:45-46).

That's the main criteria as per Ketuvim Netzarim - or am I missing anything here?

Shalom,

Jake

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For starters I personally would also ask for further clarification. Things like the "main criteria" found elsewhere...

1)Do you eat only kosher foods?

2) Do you wear tzitzit that can be seen by others?

3) Do you "keep" the weekly Sabbath?

4) Do you "keep" the other High Sabbath days?

5) Do you treat others the way you wish to be treated, even when they are not treating you the way you wish to be treated? (I must confess, I fail at this instruction more than I should) 

Thanks Mikha,

I should have put my question more clearly, sorry:

How do you define Jewish as per Eloah's Word, i.e., what Jew will be accepted by Eloah – now and on Judgment Day?

In light of this, the main criteria you have listed above are not really relevant. Outward acts of obedience towards Torah, though commendable (and necessary), don't turn you into a Jew.

Either you are a Jew due to ancestry (which doesn't mean that you will be saved), or because you were born again and received a new heart – which, by the way, does neither guarantee that you will be saved:

"... he is not a Jew who is one in appearance [only]: also what is made visible in the flesh [alone] is not circumcision. But that one is a Jew, who [is one] secretly: and circumcision is that of the heart by the Spirit, and not by the letter [only]; whose praise is not from men, but from Eloah." (Romans 2:28-29)

Today, a traditional conversion to mere Judaism, by submitting to Torah, Jewish customs, etc., doesn't turn a Gentile into a Jew in Eloah's eyes (only in men's eyes), and it doesn't please Eloah either. I may have misunderstood you, Mikha, but I just want to clarify that mere Torah obedience won't justify nor save anybody, just as no Catholic will be saved by their liturgical gymnastics (the common thread being works).  

In the first century there were people who surely ate kosher, etc., but they were not considered Jews by Eloah (despite their ancestry): 

"... those who say that their nefeshot are Jewish when they are not Jewish, but the congregation of HaSatan." (Revelation 2:9)

Revelation being written in code, we know that this verse speaks about 'traditional' Jews who had rejected Messiah, who hadn't been born again, and who didn't have Messiah's Spirit within them. These people claimed they were Jews, but they weren't according to Eloah's Ketuvim-Netzarim definition. And because they were not, they cursed and helped persecuting the true Jews, i.e., the Nazarenes or Messianics (or, if you allow the pagan term, Christians – without Greek/Roman-Catholic overtones). 

By the way, I strive to do those things in your list – and I know that these things alone won't save me      

Shalom,

Jake

PS: I use the term saved in the sense of saved from eternal damnation. 

Jake,

Notice above I prefaced my statements with, "For starters"? Torah obedience/acceptance while I agree does not justify anyone, I cannot agree that it is is trivial as you seem to have alluded to with the statement "not really relevant". We should both know that acceptance of Torah cannot be fully realized without acceptance of the Eternal who we both realize came to eretz in the form of a human. In other words, Messiah=Torah and visa versa. It therefore stands to reason no one can possibly TRULY accept one and yet not the other. 

Regarding the verse you mentioned at Rev 2:9, we do not agree this is referring to anyone practicing/having practiced "traditional Judaism" but instead is referring of all of those lost within Twistianity that say they are the "new Israel".   

Your preface has been duly noted, and it shows that you are putting the cart before the horse. Torah adherence doesn't have any bearing on your standing before Eloah, as long as you are dead in your sins (For circumcision is nothing nor uncircumcision, but a new creation, Galatians 6:15). Once the Ruach HaKodesh dwells in your renewed spirit, Torah is to be kept of course, not in order to gain salvation but because you have joined the Yisrael of Eloah – it doesn't work the other way round.

As to Revelation 2:9, I don't intend to start another debate. Suffice to say, this book shows the fate of Messiah's servants, i.e., of Nazarenes/Messianics/Christians/Humpty Dumpties (or whatever term one prefers), which was persecution. The millions who died in coliseums, catacombs and dungeons (vs. 10) were born-again Christians, true Torah-observing Christians – their affliction is described here, not that of unbelieving Jews who waffle about being replaced by the church (they were hardly around in those days).

I am sorry, but to me you seem prejudiced, confusing Rome and her Torah-less harlot daughters with Christians. The way you skew scripture simply shows your ignorance and self-righteous disdain towards the Humpty Dumpties. Also, it casts a poor light on Nazarene Judaism (or in imitation of your childish slander: Nazarene Skewdaism). 

Maybe you should get your priorities right and, instead of kidding yourself, ask yourself whether you've been truly baptized by fire. And if not, that'd be a good start I think.

PS: Though seemingly harsh, this is not personally against you Mikha (I simply felt it was necessary).

Shalom,

Jake

 

Appears we will need to agree to disagree then. In my eyes it's contradictory to state, 1) "torah (teachings/instructions) adherence doesn't have any bearing on your standing before Eloah" and then...2) "as long as you are dead in your sins".

How can anyone be "dead to sin" knowing violation of "the law" (..."law" according to the beloved by Twistianity's King Jimmy) is sin"? (Rom 2:3, 7:1, 8:7, 1 Jn 3:4, etc) We seem to be disagreeing on which should/does normally occur in someone that SAYS they believe scripture. Again I will say that NO ONE can TRULY accept the Eternal (aka...Yeshua) without acceptance of His Torah. They are synonymous. You keep seemingly contradicting yourself by attempting to trivialize torah adherence IMO.

--------------------------------------

quote Jake:

I am sorry, but to me you seem prejudiced, confusing Rome and her Torah-less harlot daughters with Christians. The way you skew scripture simply shows your ignorance and self-righteous disdain towards the Humpty Dumpties. Also, it casts a poor light on Nazarene Judaism (or in imitation of your childish slander: Nazarene Skewdaism).

----------------------------------

There is absolutely no confusion on my end. Show me ANYONE currently living that calls themselves X-tian and is torah observant. Just so you know, my "self righteous" (..wrong again) disdain is continually directed at the "masquerading messengers of lawlessness" or the so called "teachers", never anyone deceived by them... Unless of course they refuse to hear the truth (..aka Torah).

Any "poor lights" being cast here don't come from me. You are still attempting to hold onto the lies you have been programmed with and can't seem to let go of. Who/what is true the true form of "Judaism" or "defining Jewish"? Pretty basic question in my mind. If it was good enough for Shaul and his followers it's good enough for me. Start your own offshoot and call it whatever you wish. Nazarene Judaism is the only ONE true faith. 

Mikha,

It's not about being "dead to sin", but "dead in sins" (Eph 2:5).

We were made sinners by Adam's transgression (Rom 5:19), and we won't get rid of that sinful nature by starting to obey Torah. Even Shaul, who had excelled in Judaism (Gal 1:14), understood that. He understood that he was a sinner on the way to hell, but he was reborn, i.e., he had repented, was immersed to death in the name of Yeshua, and was raised by the power of the Holy Spirit – which is why he spoke in tongues, just like all Nazarenes (1. Peter 3:19). So how about following Shaul?   

You need to get saved/reborn first (JN 3:5), and then you'll follow Torah. Israel left slavery first, and then they came to Mt. Sinai.

Yes, I would call myself a Torah-observant Christian (despite the phony Gentile misleading term), or a Torah-observant Messianic, or a Torah-observant Nazarene, or a Torah-observant Talmid, or a Torah-observant Saint, et al. – because I don't give much of a damn about the label; the content is more important... and surely there are some others like me around.

Until now you haven't been able to correctly answer that "pretty basic question", as you don't seem to know the basics of salvation (but it's good to know that you only rant against teachers).

Shalom, Jake

PS: Born again, Torah-less tongue-babblers will also burn in hell (MT 7:22-23).

 

"and we won't get rid of that sinful nature by starting to obey torah"

Your right, my preposition was wrong Ditto what I said above though. You are contradicting yourself. Do you really think that someone that realizes the need for the torah incarnate Savior of all mankind has fully realized that without simultaneously accepting the torah itself? If you cannot understand this I'm not sure I can help you any further.

Calling yourself a torah observant X-tian is also contradictory. Why do you insist on associating yourself with mystery Babylon? 

If you could save yourself by keeping Torah, why was Yeshua crucified?

Because He, the innocent, took the death penalty, for you the guilty! And if you don't claim what He did for you, by repenting, being immersed in His name, and receiving the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh, i.e., by being born again like Shaul was, and all the others, - then you will burn in hell together with your tassels, tefillin, and kosher food in your mouth. Of course, anyone who wants to follow Yeshua is to accept the Torah, but you make it sound as if it's just a matter of 'obeying the book from tomorrow onwards', simply observing Shabbat, etc., from tomorrow onwards and everything's gonna be fine. That alone is not accepting Messiah, ticking the boxes is not following Messiah. Following Yeshua starts by admitting that you are a sinner, that you are lost, on your way to eternal damnation, and that you yourself can never turn your sinful nature into a holy nature, no matter how accurately you try to follow Torah - because you are a fallen creature, you are dead in sin, your spirit is DEAD! It's been dead since the day you were born, and you are telling me "I start keeping the moedim faithfully now, and all will be honky-dory, because I accept Torah." Are you kidding me? Do you think having the correct tekhelet from the correct shell of the coast of Haifa will bring your dead spirit back to life? Mate, you haven't understood what the gospel is all about. Good night. 

Jake,

Your misguided instance on getting the order of things we are discussing (1...accepting Yeshua, 2) accepting His Word) correct according to your leanings is only as accurate as the programming you have been exposed to in your Twistian leanings. Please show me were I have said acceptance of both are not a requirement. Your quite presumptuous IMO. 

Mikha,

In order to shorten this debate, and as we seem to talk past one another, can you please answer one question :

Have you fulfilled this scripture:

Repent and be immersed, each man of you, in the Name of YHWH Yeshua for the remission of sins, that you might receive the gift of Ruach HaKodesh (ACTS 2:38).

Sure right after you've answered my question you have ignored:

________________________

Quote me:

Why do you insist on associating yourself with mystery Babylon?

_________________________

Hi Mikha,

OK, fair enough – I think I should really drop the pagan term Christian.

But what should we call those 50 million who were slain by Mystery Babylon?

Many people would refer to Protestants, Anabaptists, Waldensians, etc. as Christians, (in Revelation also called Saints/Set-Apart-Ones), but the same people would never call Catholics Christians.

And, - ignoring for a sec that the term Christian itself is pagan, - in principal this distinction is correct, isn’t it?

The religion which Rome created has nothing to do with what the Nazarenes believed & practiced. Thus, it has also nothing to do with what the term Christian implies in the book of Acts & 1st Kefa (though the term itself was created by the Greco-Roman world).

The Christians who were cast to the lions, used as torches by Nero, etc. are in fact Nazarenes – right?

Now, considering that the Nazarenes were either corrupted or killed, may one not as well say that – in a certain sense – Constantine declared some utterly perverted & paganized form of Nazarene Judaism to be state religion, only that he used the term Christianity? And that anyone who judaized, refusing sun-worship etc., was subsequently killed? Fact is, that the Jews (referring to the unbelieving ones) were only persecuted from Constantine onwards.

The bottom line is probably that those 50 million who were slain over a period of some 1,200 years were – generally speaking – followers of the ancient sect of the Nazarenes, at least to a certain degree (valuing the scriptures, keeping Shabbat, rejecting the trinity, etc.). After all those martyrs are described in Revelation as a remnant which keeps the commandments.

I agree with you that today’s so-called Christians (though they may consider themselves Protestants) have nothing to do with what Yeshua commanded us to do. They are all corrupted by Torah- & truth hating Rome, most of them not being aware of it.

Still, I would not use the degrading term Twistians, as many people would relate it to those 50 million.

Shalom,

Jake

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