Friday evening to Sunday morning is not three days
Every year at Pesach this discussion comes up: "when was Y'shua` really executed, and when did He rise?" There is always the conflict about which days were Shabos, when firstfruits was, and when the counting of the `omer should begin. The glaring issue to be resolved is the fact that the traditional friday to sunday timeline doesn't work out with the B'ris Chadashah.
The best I can come up with is that He was executed on the fifteenth of Nisan, was burried just before sunset, making the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth the three days for the "sign of Yonah" - and rose on the nineteenth just after sunset (with the nineteenth being a sunday, because it says the women went to the tomb directly after Shabos ended).
This still leaves one issue: it says He was taken down from the stake quickly because of Shabos. What is the Shabos that is being spoken of?
Tags: Friday, Nisan, Passover, Pesach, Shabbat, Shabos, Sunday, days, three
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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From my Hebraic Roots Commentary to Luke at
http://www.lulu.com/nazarene
24:21 it is three days since all these things happen – This seems to point to a Thursday crucifixion, despite popular theories of either a Friday or a Wednesday crucifixion.. This statement is clearly made during the day on Sunday (the First Day of the Week). Thus if we count backwards using this verse as a basis we find:
Sunday (1st Day of week) is the third day
“since all these things happened”
Saturday (7th Day of week) is the second day
“since all these things happened”
Friday (6th Day of week) is the first day
“since all these things happened” (This day was the 15th of Nissan- A annual Sabbath)
Thursday (5th Day of week) is the day
“all these things happened”
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Permalink Reply by Dovid Patrick on -
That seems to work, except for one thing - it seems from the gospels that Y'shua` was betrayed the same night as the seder. ... ?
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Permalink Reply by Dovid Patrick on
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How could the seder have been on the sixteenth? The seder is on the eve of the fifteenth. (the second seder is never observed on Yisroel)
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The Seder is on the evening of the 14th.
Yeshua ate the Passover on the evening of the 14th. He was tried that night and crucified the following afternoon (still the 14th on the Hebrew Calendar in which days run evening to evening) and then he was buried before the annual Sabbath on the 15th of Nisan.
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Permalink Reply by Dovid Patrick on
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So the seder was the "talmidim's seder" the night before the actual seder?
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Permalink Reply by Dovid Patrick on
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Okay, so here's what I think I've got:
Tuesday, nisan 14 evening: seder with talmidim
Wednesday, nisan 14 day: Y'shua` died on the stake and was burried
Thursday, nisan 15 - first day of Pesach - Shabos (annual): first night and day
Friday, nisan 16 - second day of Pesach: second night and day
Shabos, nisan 17 - third day of Pesach - Shabos (weekly): third night and day
Sunday, nisan 18 evening - resurrection sometime after havdoloh.
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Permalink Reply by Rudy on -
Something not so related to this, what do you guys think of this apparent contradiction?
In Luke we read,
Luk 23:54-56 And it was Preparation Day, and a sabbath was coming on. And having followed, also the women who were accompanying Him out of Galilee, watched the tomb, and how His body was placed. And returning, they prepared spices and ointment. And indeed they rested on the sabbath, according to the commandment.
So according to Luke, the women prepared the spices and ointment before the Sabbath. However, Mark seems to say the opposite,
Mar 16:1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
According to Mark, the women bought the spices after the Sabbath. So what is it then? They bought the spices before the Sabbath (like Luke says) or after the Sabbath (like Mark says). Your thoughts?
Rudy.
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Again the materiel below is in my Hebraic Roots Commentary to Luke at http://www.lulu.com/nazarene
Luke 23:54 says in the Aramaic:
"And it was the day of preparation and the Sabbath was *dawning* [NOGAH] (Strong's Aramaic #5053)"
Lets look at this Aramaic word NOGAH:
According to Charles Cutler Torrey in his monumental work "Our Translated Gospels" this word can mean either "as it dawned" or "and before the dawn" (p. 21)
Torrey elaborates on p. 25:
[NOGAH] designates ordinarily the time between the close (sunset) of one day and the dawn of the next day, and may apply either to the entire time or to any part of it.... the time intended could equally well be midnight, or any hour before or after it. The same idiom precisely, using the same word... is found in classical Syriac. In the Chronicle of Joshua the Stylite, ed. Wright, p. 22, line 9, it designates the whole "night between Friday and Saturday." In Bedjan's Acta Mart. et Sanct., IV, 579 f., the time is "at midnight"; ibid., 629, "at the eleventh hour of the night."
(Our Translated Gospels by Charles Cutler Torrey; 1936; p. 25)
(For those who do not know Syriac is an Aramaic dialect.)
Professor Marcus Jastrow in his *Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud Babli, Yerushalmi and Midrashic Literature* (p. 873) gives one of the definitions of NOGAH as "to get dark, to be belated." He gives these examples of this usage of NOGAH in the Aramaic of the Talmud:
"*night set in* (NOGAH), and no food was brought to them."
(b.Taan. 24a)
"the reason why I am *late* (NOGAH)"
(b.Shabb. 10a)
So while the word NOGAH is commonly translated as "dawn" it can also refer to anytime after it gets dark in the evening and up to dawn as well.
Rudex said:Something not so related to this, what do you guys think of this apparent contradiction?
In Luke we read,
Luk 23:54-56 And it was Preparation Day, and a sabbath was coming on. And having followed, also the women who were accompanying Him out of Galilee, watched the tomb, and how His body was placed. And returning, they prepared spices and ointment. And indeed they rested on the sabbath, according to the commandment.
So according to Luke, the women prepared the spices and ointment before the Sabbath. However, Mark seems to say the opposite,
Mar 16:1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
According to Mark, the women bought the spices after the Sabbath. So what is it then? They bought the spices before the Sabbath (like Luke says) or after the Sabbath (like Mark says). Your thoughts?
Rudy.
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Permalink Reply by 命 on -
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Jesus-Re...
"Yeshua was buried late on a Wednesday afternoon, just before the Passover high Sabbath, and he was resurrected very early on the morning of the weekly Sabbath. This particular weekly Sabbath was one of the seven Sabbaths counted to Pentecost. It was known to the Jews as the "First Sabbath" because it was the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and Pentecost. Furthermore, it's likely that the "first day of the week," Sunday, is NEVER even mentioned in the Greek New Testament. May God help us to put away the traditions of men and obey His Torah!"
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Last-Sup...
"Many people believe that Yeshua ate a Passover meal with his disciples, as the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke appear to indicate. Others disagree, pointing to John's Gospel, which clearly shows that this "last supper" occurred before the Passover feast. Is there a way to reconcile the two differing accounts? Can both accounts be correct?"
The article eventually concludes:
"We can see that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) do not conflict with John's account of the "last supper" when understood correctly. A careful study of all four Gospels shows that Yeshua and the disciples did not eat the Passover meal. There was no way they could have, since the time had not yet come to sacrifice the Passover lambs. They simply prepared for the Passover by deleavening the location they planned to use for the Feast. Afterward they ate some type of celebratory or preparatory meal on the evening of Nisan 14. At this supper, Yeshua instituted the New Covenant symbols of the bread and wine. After the meal, Judas Iscariot rose and left to betray Yeshua to the Jewish authorities. When approached with an open mind and the belief that the Scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35), we can reconcile all these accounts."
The Last Supper was a preparatory meal, as the Passover Lambs had not yet been slaughtered.
The Last Supper WAS NOT PESACH - Yeshua is waiting to "eat this feast with you, in my Father's kingdom"
Meaning instead of celebrating the feast, he went and fulfilled it's meaning - and will finally celebrate the completion of Pesach when he returns.
Devan Smiralia said:So the seder was the "talmidim's seder" the night before the actual seder?
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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Preparing the body IS allowed on Sabbath.
You have thus not "destroyed" my conjecture.
The Jewish Mishnah (which records the oral law as it most likely would have been observed in Yeshua's day) addresses the legality of anointing a dead body on a weekly Sabbath. Let's see what the Mishnah says would have been allowed:
A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke —
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)
The women rested according to the Law on the Passover Sabbath (Lev. 23:6-7), but they had legal justification to go to the tomb on the weekly Sabbath. It was the Jewish custom (in fact, an obligation) for grieving friends and relatives to go to a grave on the third day to pay last respects. It was at this point in time that death was considered permanent. So a Sabbath morning visit to Yeshua's tomb by the women for the purpose of anointing his body would have been in accord with the Jewish oral law and would not have broken the Sabbath commandment (Exo. 20:8-11).
Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:but the women were not allowed to work on the sabbath by preparing Yahushua's body. this seems to destroy your interpretation. i'm considering an interpretation where Yahushua is crucified wednesday afternoon, body taken down wednesday evening and prepared by Joseph, and only buried thursday morning.
so, we would have thurs day thurs eve
fri day
fri eve
sat day
sat eve
that is three days and three nights, and then Yahushua is resurrected.
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Permalink Reply by 命 on
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According to Leviticus 23:15, there were seven weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost that were to be counted. When referring to any of these seven Sabbaths, the Jews would simply call them "one of the Sabbaths." There was an annual date just after Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the "First Sabbath"; this was the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath. "One of the Sabbaths," mentioned by all of the Gospel writers (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19), refers to this very "First Sabbath"! When English translators render the Greek text as "first day of the week," they do so because of tradition. The most logical translation would be the most literal: "One of the Sabbaths."
Regarding the term "preparation day";
The Good Friday/Easter Sunday proponents' contention that "the Preparation Day" ONLY refers to Friday is clearly unsupportable. As the Wednesday burial/Sabbath morning resurrection chronology above shows, this "Preparation Day of the Passover" (John 19:14) would have been Wednesday, Nisan 14 (see the Jewish calendar for 30 CE to verify this date).
Getting back to the sequence of events of the burial/resurrection recorded by Luke, let's look at Young's Literal Translation for another rendering of this passage:
LUKE 23:54 And the day was a preparation, and Sabbath was approaching, 55 and the women also who have come with him out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, 56 and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments . . . (YLT)
Luke tells us that the women followed Joseph to the tomb and watched the burial of Yeshua. Then we are informed that "having returned, they made ready spices and ointments." Since the Passover Sabbath was rapidly approaching while Yeshua was being buried, the women could not have obtained and prepared the spices for Yeshua's body that night (Wednesday night) or the next day (Thursday day). Luke tells us here WHAT the women did, but he doesn't tell us WHEN they did it. To answer the question of when the women acquired and made ready the spices, we must go to the Gospel of Mark:
MARK 15:47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses observed where he was laid. 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. (NKJV)
We see from Mark's parallel account that Mary Magdelene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought the spices after "the Sabbath." The Sabbath being referred to here is the same Sabbath mentioned in Leviticus 23:11, 15 — the annual Passover Sabbath of Nisan 15 (which occurred this particular year on Wednesday night/Thursday day). Therefore, the women would have purchased the spices during the day on Friday, Nisan 16.
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