Nazarene Space

What are the advantages / disadvantages of each?

I used to be a firm believer in the Enoch (364) day solar calendar, but now I'm not so sure. It really seems like months should be based off of lunar cycles (29.5 days) based on Genesis 1... I'm not saying that I definitively reject the Enoch 364 day calendar, just that I am really starting to question it, and I am open to everyone's thoughts/opinions on the subject.

1) What calendar do you keep?
2) What facts do you base this decision on?

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Hanoch calendar is before Hizquiyahu´s days and sign. You should read this article from Moshe Eliyahu:

Hizqiyahu (Hezeqiah) the Sun Dial of Ahaz & the 29/30 Day Month


Shalom
Interesting. Is Moshe Eliyahu the same as Moshe K? I don't buy into the whole lunar Sabbath thing... seems to violate Genesis 1-2. But the article itself is interesting.

Iejezquel Ben Efrayim said:
Hanoch calendar is before Hizquiyahu´s days and sign. You should read this article from Moshe Eliyahu:

Hizqiyahu (Hezeqiah) the Sun Dial of Ahaz & the 29/30 Day Month


Shalom
My whole issue is this: what would primitive man have used? I'm not saying this is an absolute sure line of reasoning, but here's the thing... a lunar calendar system just makes sense when you look at it from the standpoint of ancient man. The most obvious ways of recording time were the two signs given during the creation account of Genesis 1, the sun and the moon. The sun keeps track of the seasons by its "cycle", and the moon keeps track of months by its "cycle".

I'm just trying to look at this as objectively as possible. :-\
1) Lunisolar, Rabbinic calendar, which has been a proven through prophetic use in the Bible Codes.

2)

A) "Seat of Moses"-argument; Yeshua met keepers of the Rabbinic calendar literally every day of his life, and never says a word of reproach against it - this is a HUGE logistical issue the Enochians cannot get around.
In fact, Yeshua tells us to practice what the Pharisaic Rabbis say - they said to keep a lunisolar calendar.

B) "Jubilees is untrustworthy"-argument: Enoch's calendar apparently agrees with the Jubilees' calendar I'm told. Jubilees an untrustworthy book, and this is thus a sign of either interpolation, or a separate, false tradition, parallel to the true Rabbinic, Yeshua-endorsed calendar tradition.

C) "Corruption in Enoch (and Jubilees)"-argument: I don't trust the entirety of Enoch, nor do I trust anything in Jubilees.

D) "Omer"-argument: The omer-count implied or endorsed by Enoch/Jubilees is the false, Sadducee method, as opposed to the popular Rabbinical method of Yeshua's time.
One again, Yeshua would have corrected his people if the majority, virtually the entire nation, were all keeping the false calendar and omer-count (even the Sadducees were forced to keep the Pharisaic calendar and count), but he never did.

E) "No support for Enoch/Jubilees calendar exists at all"-argument: No real reason to trust a non-Rabbinic calendar exists. No real reason to keep the Enochian calendar exists.
I've not found any non-canonized, gnostic, anti-semitic, or fragmentary works to even HINT that Yeshua had a problem with the popular calendar of his time.
Anti-semites and anti-nomians among the early Christians would not have let this one slip.
A) I personally go with the Shem Tob Matthew, in which Yahshua says, "The Pharisees sit in Moses's seat; do what he says." meaning, the authority doesn't sit with the Pharisees, it sits with Moses. However, this does not necessarily invalidate your argument against the Enochian calendar in favor of the Pharisaic calendar; Yahshua rebuked specific points of the belief system that required rebuke... the calendar was not one of them.

I can only assume, therefore, that the true calendar is either,

A) not that important
B) already set in place (I am leaning toward this one)

As for the trustworthiness of Enoch/Jubilees, I'm with you on this one. Enoch has very little early manuscript evidence, and Jubilees isn't even worth reading. I'm not saying I discredit Enoch, just maybe the calendar portion of it, as it seems to be a fairly obvious product of a specific time period , during which one Jewish sect was writing against another Jewish sect.

Christian said:
1) Lunisolar, Rabbinic calendar, which has been a proven through prophetic use in the Bible Codes.
2)
A) "Seat of Moses"-argument; Yeshua met keepers of the Rabbinic calendar literally every day of his life, and never says a word of reproach against it - this is a HUGE logistical issue the Enochians cannot get around.
In fact, Yeshua tells us to practice what the Pharisaic Rabbis say - they said to keep a lunisolar calendar.

B) "Jubilees is untrustworthy"-argument: Enoch's calendar apparently agrees with the Jubilees' calendar I'm told. Jubilees an untrustworthy book, and this is thus a sign of either interpolation, or a separate, false tradition, parallel to the true Rabbinic, Yeshua-endorsed calendar tradition.

C) "Corruption in Enoch (and Jubilees)"-argument: I don't trust the entirety of Enoch, nor do I trust anything in Jubilees.

D) "Omer"-argument: The omer-count implied or endorsed by Enoch/Jubilees is the false, Sadducee method, as opposed to the popular Rabbinical method of Yeshua's time.
One again, Yeshua would have corrected his people if the majority, virtually the entire nation, were all keeping the false calendar and omer-count (even the Sadducees were forced to keep the Pharisaic calendar and count), but he never did.

E) "No support for Enoch/Jubilees calendar exists at all"-argument: No real reason to trust a non-Rabbinic calendar exists. No real reason to keep the Enochian calendar exists.
I've not found any non-canonized, gnostic, anti-semitic, or fragmentary works to even HINT that Yeshua had a problem with the popular calendar of his time.
Anti-semites and anti-nomians among the early Christians would not have let this one slip.
Shalom J

Your investigation suggests to me that you may be making this calendar issue more complicated than it needs to be. My understanding of these matters is fairly simple. And I like to believe that the instruction of Torah is likewise simple and direct.

I probably don't need to remind you of the Hebraic context of Gen 1:14 as it relates to Leviticus 23. Nor do I need to remind you that both the Enoch Calendar and the Rabbinical Calendar have changed; the former due to (supposed) changes in the rotation of the Earth and the latter due to the traditions of man. For instance, the site: "http://www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm", includes the following admission concerning the changes to the Jewish Calendar: "At that time, the new months were determined by observation. Each month began when the first sliver of moon became visible after the dark of the moon. Observers would watch the sky at night for any sign of the moon. If they saw the moon, they would report their sightings to the Sanhedrin, which would interrogate them to make sure that they were not mistaken. Where in the sky did the moon appear? Which direction was it pointing? If two independent, reliable eyewitnesses confirmed that the new moon had appeared and described it consistently, the Sanhedrin would declare the new month and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.

The day after the moon appeared was a festival, announced with the sounding of the shofar, commemorated with solemn convocations, family festivities and special sacrifices. The importance of this holiday in ancient times should not be underestimated. The entire calendar was dependent upon these declarations; without the declarations, there would be no way of knowing when holidays were supposed to occur.

In later days, however, the calendar was fixed by mathematical computation. After the destruction of the Temple, sacrifices were no longer available. Accordingly, the significance of this festival has substantially diminished.
"

The 'mathematical calculation' to which they refer is the calculation of the 'dark' of the astronomical new moon as opposed to the observed new moon, rendering the observation of the Appointed Times of Adonai off by a matter of two or three days and in some cases off by over thirty days.

It is worthy of note that the simple observation of the 'greater and lesser lights' in accordance with the instruction of Torah will allow us to correctly observe the Moedim no matter the changes in the calendars of men. That is my take on things anyway. I tend to agree with the calendrical methods employed by the Karaites.

Offered in His Love,
Phillip
There is a false simplicity to rejecting the authority of the Rabbis, and their calendar (which has been confirmed through prophetic usage in the Bible Codes).

Who's to say Judah did not have the authority to fix a calendar according to such a mathematical calculation?

ROMANS 3:1-4 "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged."

GENESIS.49:10 "The sceptre turneth not aside from Judah, and a lawgiver [mechoqqi] from between his feet, till his Seed come; and his is the obedience of peoples."

Two of the Tehillim echo the fact that YHWH gave the tribe of Judah the responsibility for preserving His oracles:

PSALM 60:7 Gilead is Mine, and Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the helmet for My head;
Judah is My lawgiver
[mechoqqi].

PSALM 108:8 Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head;
Judah is my lawgiver
[mechoqqi];

The root of the Hebrew word "Mechoqqi" translated "lawgiver" in Gen. 49:10 (as well as Psa. 60:7 & Psa. 108:8) is chaqaq.
It literally means "to engrave"; by extension, it means "to be a scribe."
Judah was the one who was given the authority to document, record and transmit the oracles of God down through the ages.

Many theologians focus on the phrase "to him shall be the obedience of the people," making "Shiloh" (which is commonly understood to be the Messiah) into the focus of this prophecy.
However, we must remember that the primary thrust of the prophecies given by Jacob to his sons in Genesis 49 was to tell them "what shall befall you in the last days" (Gen. 49:1).

Therefore, the true intent of this prophecy is to show that Judah and his descendants would be the preservers of God's oracles until the coming of the Messiah to establish the kingdom of heaven here on the earth.


Three times (cf. Deu. 19:15, Matt. 18:16; II Cor. 13:1) the Scriptures clearly confirm Paul's statement that the Jews as a whole are responsible for preserving and transmitting God's Word from generation to generation.

If we are to be unified in any way whatsover in the Diaspora, we need a calendar.
The Diaspora necessitates a specific calendar, not reliant upon making personal, monthly observations.
Rabbinical Judah sits in the Seat of Moses in my opinion, and has been given the understanding for making the calendars, not the Sadducee-Levite inspired Karaites, nor those who would have you staring out the window every 29 or so days to find the new moon.

Yes, at the time of Yeshua, the Hebrew calendar was still being determined by the Sanhedrin every month by visual observation of the new moon.
In Diaspora, the standardized rules for the Hebrew calendar compiled by Hillel II in 358 CE are what we must follow, not that the Enoch/Jubilees calendar would even be close to being a natural alternative, even if we were to reject the Rabbinical calendar.

Just think about the situation of the ancients, after being scattered to all four corners of the earth by the Romans, before phones and personal computers existed;
they would be forced to determine new months according to the visibility of the new moon in Eretz Israel, which would be a geographical impossibility, or be forced to determine new months according to the visibility of the new moon, as it appeared on wildly different dates, in different areas all over the world.
OR - they could have an inspired, fixed, lunisolar calendar, which I do think is what they got, and still have.

It's easy to attack one calendar, not so easy to offer a feasible alternative...
Sure, this might seem more complex, more boring, perhaps even more "adult" - but simplicity isn't always the truth.
well .. me and a Natzara brother of mine are reluctant to join a Modern-Orthodox synagogue in a capital in our country simply because of the calender..

wanna know why?? it's something all of you seem to miss..

the Thora clearly speaks out against astrology and guess what?? The current Rabbinic calendar is partly based on astrology.. they tend to celebrate Pesach 8 days later then the Biblical appointed time of celebrating it and so on...

if any of you can show me the rabbinic is the Biblical one then i would love that cause i don't mind joining a modern-Orthodox community at all nor does my brother

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/karaite-reckoning-1844.htm
Fascinating, I had also been interested in the Karaite method. Seems like it's all based on observation.

Phillip Hawley said:
Shalom J
Your investigation suggests to me that you may be making this calendar issue more complicated than it needs to be. My understanding of these matters is fairly simple. And I like to believe that the instruction of Torah is likewise simple and direct.
I probably don't need to remind you of the Hebraic context of Gen 1:14 as it relates to Leviticus 23. Nor do I need to remind you that both the Enoch Calendar and the Rabbinical Calendar have changed; the former due to (supposed) changes in the rotation of the Earth and the latter due to the traditions of man. For instance, the site: "http://www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm", includes the following admission concerning the changes to the Jewish Calendar: "At that time, the new months were determined by observation. Each month began when the first sliver of moon became visible after the dark of the moon. Observers would watch the sky at night for any sign of the moon. If they saw the moon, they would report their sightings to the Sanhedrin, which would interrogate them to make sure that they were not mistaken. Where in the sky did the moon appear? Which direction was it pointing? If two independent, reliable eyewitnesses confirmed that the new moon had appeared and described it consistently, the Sanhedrin would declare the new month and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.

The day after the moon appeared was a festival, announced with the sounding of the shofar, commemorated with solemn convocations, family festivities and special sacrifices. The importance of this holiday in ancient times should not be underestimated. The entire calendar was dependent upon these declarations; without the declarations, there would be no way of knowing when holidays were supposed to occur.

In later days, however, the calendar was fixed by mathematical computation. After the destruction of the Temple, sacrifices were no longer available. Accordingly, the significance of this festival has substantially diminished.
"

The 'mathematical calculation' to which they refer is the calculation of the 'dark' of the astronomical new moon as opposed to the observed new moon, rendering the observation of the Appointed Times of Adonai off by a matter of two or three days and in some cases off by over thirty days.

It is worthy of note that the simple observation of the 'greater and lesser lights' in accordance with the instruction of Torah will allow us to correctly observe the Moedim no matter the changes in the calendars of men. That is my take on things anyway. I tend to agree with the calendrical methods employed by the Karaites.

Offered in His Love,
Phillip
No, Moshe Eliyahu is different from Moshe K. but it seems that this article was written by Moshe Eliyahu´s son Warren Smith.

Why does lunar Shabbat violates Bereshit 1-2?

Shalom

J. Jury said:
Interesting. Is Moshe Eliyahu the same as Moshe K? I don't buy into the whole lunar Sabbath thing... seems to violate Genesis 1-2. But the article itself is interesting.

Iejezquel Ben Efrayim said:
Hanoch calendar is before Hizquiyahu´s days and sign. You should read this article from Moshe Eliyahu:

Hizqiyahu (Hezeqiah) the Sun Dial of Ahaz & the 29/30 Day Month


Shalom
It seems that the very basis of counting any reckoning of time is in 7 day cycles.

Iejezquel Ben Efrayim said:
No, Moshe Eliyahu is different from Moshe K. but it seems that this article was written by Moshe Eliyahu´s son Warren Smith.

Why does lunar Shabbat violates Bereshit 1-2?

Shalom

J. Jury said:
Interesting. Is Moshe Eliyahu the same as Moshe K? I don't buy into the whole lunar Sabbath thing... seems to violate Genesis 1-2. But the article itself is interesting.

Iejezquel Ben Efrayim said:
Hanoch calendar is before Hizquiyahu´s days and sign. You should read this article from Moshe Eliyahu:

Hizqiyahu (Hezeqiah) the Sun Dial of Ahaz & the 29/30 Day Month


Shalom
Shalom Christian,

Forgive me in advance, as I am the newcomer to this place. Perhaps you misunderstood to point of my missive. For I do not contend that simple equates truth. I contend that Yah's truth is simple and direct in most instances.

Despite what many say to me about authority and how it is to be determined, there is now only one authority. We are expressly commanded not to acknowledge anyone as Father, Master or Teacher except Yahuah and Yahshua. I have never found a single passage of scripture that indicates that any man may alter, abrogate or countermand a direct command of Yah. I know that Yahshua never did.

It has always been my position that there cannot be a contradiction in the Word of the Most High. Anything that appears as such must be a misinterpretation on our part. That is what I mean by simple. His Word is Truth.

Concerning the prophecy in Gen 49:10, you rightly state that it is about the last days. This Hebraic idiom has always been interpreted to mean the time of the coming of Messiah. We know now that Messiah comes more than once. And true to form, some prophecies have multiple fulfillments.

In ancient times, the patriarch of a tribe would carry a staff engraved with the genealogy of his linage all the way back to Adam. After the prophecy of Israel, it is clear that the name went with Ephraim, the priesthood with Levi and the Kingship with Judah. It was clear that the Messiah would come through Judah's bloodline and inherit the throne of David. After the Egyptian captivity, after the children of Israel entered the land, genealogies were kept in the Temple by the priests.

Concerning the first fulfillment of this prophecy, it is interesting to note that the Temple was destroyed along with ALL the genealogies of the priests and the people after His Seed came...

You seem to think that the Diaspora requires a calendar that we can all observe. OK. Just consider this: All prophecy has been about the ministry of the Redeemer. It is centered on Messiah and the land of Israel. And it seems that all observations of 'signs' can only be predicated on the correct reckoning of the Appointed Times as observed from Israel. Nothing else matters but what He commanded in the manner that He commanded it. And coincidentally (or not), in these last days we are able to discern the skies over Israel in real time from any place on the planet. Indeed, there are some prophecies that seem to rely on this very fact. This seems so much more than reasonable where suddenly, 1) we are capable of observing them in the manner prescribed in Torah from anywhere on the planet and 2) the accuracy of the 'signs' we are to observe that have to do with these 'last days' now matters just as these capabilities become widespread and available to all cultures. Again we seem to be intent on 'helping' Adonai. Again we see He doesn't need our help in these matters. Again, all we need to do is follow His instructions.

Of a truth my brother, I have little regard for the traditions of man that are not in complete alignment with the commandments of the One I love. For I know that He gave those commandments out of love for me and you as a means that we should be saved from His righteous judgement. Psalm 118:8.

Be Blessed.

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