Does a 'Fence' violate the Brit Chadashah? Ephesians 2:14-15
Pirqei Avot says:
"Make a fence for the Torah" (1:1)
This is one example of an overall trend in Rabbinic Literature that is quite nationalistic and tends to drive out all non-Jews. This verse could be a precept handed down by Rabbi Akiva himself who crowned Bar Kokbum as messiah (??).
Paul wrote in Eph 2:14 -15:
For he (Yeshua haMaschiach) is our peace who made two (Jew and Gentile) into one and the dividing wall between us he tore down. For in his flesh he destroyed the enmity and the commandments of the boundaries in the Torah and he made the two into one man, new in his soul and in this he made peace for us.
(my translation of Ginsburg's Hebrew rendering):
כִּי הוּא שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה שְׁנַיִם לְאֶחָד וְאֶת־הַקִּיר הַמַּבְדִּיל בֵּינֵינוּ הָרָס׃
טו כִּי־בִבְשָׂרוֹ מָחָה אֶת־הָאֵיבָה וְאֶת־מִצְוֹת הַחֻקִּים בַּתּוֹרָה וַיַּעַשׂ שְׁנַיִם לְאִישׁ־אֶחָד חָדָשׁ בְּנַפְשׁוֹ וּבָזֹאת עָשָׂה לָנוּ שָׁלוֹם׃
( If anyone would challenge חק (hoqh) being translated as 'boundary' see Jeremiah 5:22).
I believe "the commandments of the boundaries in the Torah" as quoted by Paul above refers to the Oral Torah which had been added to and perverted by the Pharisees.
To clarify I definitely don't think the Torah (Written or the true Oral one) was being abolished, nor do I think one should seek the company of ungodly people of any religion or ethnicity.
Could it be that the admonition to not let any one judge you in regards of food or drink or New Moons or Sabbaths had to do with the company with whom one was celebrating them in? The Pharasaic tendency would have been almost certainly to exclude any non native Jew, i.e. the building of walls.
The Qumran Covenantors talked about "the builders of the wall". They basically thought that God had turned his anger against these builders.
The builders of the wall who followed (literally, “walked after”) the “commander,” The “commander” is the preacher about whom He [G-d or the prophet] said (Micah 2:6), “ they shall surely preach” …They even rendered impure their holy spirit and in blasphemous terms opened [their] mouths against the laws of the covenant of G-d saying, “They are not correct.” And they spoke abomination about them…All these things the builders of the wall and daubers of plaster did not understand. For one who raises wind and preaches falsehood preached to them, because of which G-d became angry with his entire congregation. --- Zadokite Fragments, 4:19-20; 5:11-13; 8:12-13. Lawrence Schiffman, Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls: The History of Judaism, the Background of Christianity, the Lost Library of Qumran (Philadelphia: JPS, 1994)
Does anyone else have an opinion on these verses?
Tags: Ephesians2:14-15, Fence, Wall
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by grouch on -
beryl , in Exodus 24:9 " Then Moshe went up Aaron Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel " were not these 70 elders the same to help in judging civil problems ? are they not the decision's later codified into mishneh, is this not a portion of Oral Law ? Also why is Genesis 49:10 so hard to understand ? please correct me where I am wrong . G
beryl etanah said:well, anyway, i always respect your midrash for you are also well learned in the tradition. there can be some technical points obvious to your mind but that i have overlooked in this hasty resolve.
please do continue along the line of your thought. yours is more productive than mine. i have rested mine.
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Permalink Reply by grouch on
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1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
Pirkei Avos chapter 1:1
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
Then Moshe went up Aaron Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel " were not these 70 elders the same to help in judging civil problems ?
--they were.
are they not the decision's later codified into mishneh, is this not a portion of Oral Law ?
yes it is.
Also why is Genesis 49:10 so hard to understand ?
-it is not hard.
-in fact it says: "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."
nothing is hard to understand in that so long as the reader reads with a good heart.
please correct me where I am wrong .
i think you are right. not wrong. :)
grouch said:beryl , in Exodus 24:9 " Then Moshe went up Aaron Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel " were not these 70 elders the same to help in judging civil problems ? are they not the decision's later codified into mishneh, is this not a portion of Oral Law ? Also why is Genesis 49:10 so hard to understand ? please correct me where I am wrong . G
beryl etanah said:well, anyway, i always respect your midrash for you are also well learned in the tradition. there can be some technical points obvious to your mind but that i have overlooked in this hasty resolve.
please do continue along the line of your thought. yours is more productive than mine. i have rested mine.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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right rick!
mah shalomkha?
grouch said:1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
Pirkei Avos chapter 1:1
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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okay. compare--
Gal. 2:11 "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." etc. --this is not the proper language and demeanor for one who has not even seen Yeshua against someone of Kefa's dignity. if there was something else that moved Paul to doing this misdemeanor it was his zeal for the gentile converts of whom he openly expresses pride, the achievement of his special ministry; branding it as his own special gospel, cf. Rom. 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." as if as he was carrying a gospel intended specially for gentiles, separate, compared to, and apart, from what Peter and James preach (cf. v. 2:7), forgetting that the gospel was brought to the gentiles first and foremost by the mouth of Kefa (Acts 15:7). well, that is Paul in his exuberance: although, fairly, he has earned such prerogative to boast --even today, pauline boasting us justified, all gentile believers in Yeshua owes from Pauline ministry.
whereas, Ephesians 3:8, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ." this is Paul in sobriety, after all his boasting, he repents and came to admit to be the least as the gentile preacher.
hope that helps.
shabbat shalom.
Yirmeyahu said:
Beryl which scriptures would you cite as proof that Paul repented of his course of action/interpretation?
beryl etanah said:Paul should have not done that, but out of his zeal for his new converts he offended the humble Peter! anyway, both sides were right (at least in the mind of Peter, although Paul only realized his fault later as can be gleaned from his subsequent letters).
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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" The thing that to me seems contrary to spirit of the Brit Chadashah is automatically labelling every Gentile a sinner who doesn't keep the entire Oral Torah."
--as i have said, that should not be the case. Jews judge fellow jew on the basis of torah halacha; but no Jew will ever (seriously) set a gentile before the same measuring stick. we know that somehow G-d has made another provision with the gentiles of which we cannot know from merely on the basis of reading out against them from our own provisions. finally, a Jew knows that G-d alone is the true Judge who alone can label each soul rightly according the its contents." For he is our peace who made the two one, and he destroyed the wall that was standing in the middle. "
--exactly, as the message goes to the ephesian readers. no more looking down at a gentile who is no longer a heathen but a believer of the G-d of israel through Messiah. (and through mutuality we also hope that there are no more pogroms :-)
Yeshua Said, My Yoke is Light and My Burden is Easy, and He Spoke with Authority.
--His burden is "light" doesn't mean He has offered discounts for the greater laws and fair price for the lighter mitzvah (cf. Mat. 5:17-19)
--His burden is "easy" because the Ruach Haqodesh works from within the soul inspiring the Jew to perform the mitzvah, as compared to the scholarly pursuit of studying from the masters in order to know what to do, how to do, and when to do the mitzvah.
--He spoke with authority because he is The Son of G-d and the Dean of all the deans from the zekanim to pumbedetha to all yeshivoth of today. :)
If Fences Gates Hole's Work arounds go against this Dictum of a Light Yoke which might have meant A New Yoke and An Easy Burden or A Joyous Burden, then We R All in a Ditch and off the Table.
--yes you are in a ditch, but not me. :-)
--do not generalize too soon. go study again what the Kingdom is likened. the yoke of maintaining a clear conscience and freedom from circumcision is light and easy, yet it leads the same to the Kingdom.
--but there are those who agreed for a penny in a day and who must "bear the burden and heat of the day." (Matthew 20:1-16) we are not to complain if you receive equal wage, for our fathers and mothers have long agreed of same pay long ago to labor for the whole day; yes, we are not to complain if G-d is good to others; and neither ought ye boast nor get highminded (Rom. 11:20) seeing us in such facetious contractual condition.
I am not on any bodies side Just hangin in on da Table wanting to Enjoy the Bread of Life.
--take your seat. enjoy your stay. we are on da level.
Yeshua Also said, If you do / did not listen to Moshe then You don't Know Him.
--He was talking to the Jews not to the greeks or romans. (read again the nt)
I may have missed Yeshau asking us to Listen to many many many other's instruction. If I have missed it then I am sorry, I am still learning also.
-- ha ha haYeshua's Yoke could be a good study, His Yoke against the Rabbi's Yoke's and Who Really Had The Authority to Have A Light New Yoke and A Happy Burden.....Yeshua Can Has and Will Teach Us His Way, I for one Hope it is through 1 Book about 1 YHWH and His Teaching / Way.
-- well, Yeshua never wanted to degrade Him-self to become a mere law professor. He came down from the Office of the President with a different portfolio, different from the that of Moshe (of which was already given out to the elders -> pharisees & scribes -> tanaim & amoraim -> geonim -> rabbis of today). to become a disciple of Moshe was not his purpose of coming. you know that of course. but have you ever read what is written in the gospel Matthew 29:12? it says there: "think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to teach the Law and the Prophets to the nations." check your bible. ;-)For sure we need context I for example was born in Wales now in New Zealand so what do I know about Hebrew Context and that is Just it, context not more Fences Gates Holes Hoops or anything else.
--well, aside from the baptism and other sacraments what you need in New Zealand is of course a thick jacket and pair of skis. ;)
With Respect Paul.
--the respect is mutual.
I hope I am making some sort of sense due to the complexity of this discussion here and many other sites
--i have read real common sense in your post! you are worth the time replying and thank you for butting in.
Paul said:" The thing that to me seems contrary to spirit of the Brit Chadashah is automatically labelling every Gentile a sinner who doesn't keep the entire Oral Torah."
" For he is our peace who made the two one, and he destroyed the wall that was standing in the middle. "
Yeshua Said, My Yoke is Light and My Burden is Easy, and He Spoke with Authority. If Fences Gates Hole's Work arounds go against this Dictum of a Light Yoke which might have meant A New Yoke and An Easy Burden or A Joyous Burden, then We R All in a Ditch and off the Table. I am not on any bodies side Just hangin in on da Table wanting to Enjoy the Bread of Life.
Yeshua Also said, If you do / did not listen to Moshe then You don't Know Him. I may have missed Yeshau asking us to Listen to many many many other's instruction. If I have missed it then I am sorry, I am still learning also. Yeshua's Yoke could be a good study, His Yoke against the Rabbi's Yoke's and Who Really Had The Authority to Have A Light New Yoke and A Happy Burden.....Yeshua Can Has and Will Teach Us His Way, I for one Hope it is through 1 Book about 1 YHWH and His Teaching / Way. For sure we need context I for example was born in Wales now in New Zealand so what do I know about Hebrew Context and that is Just it, context not more Fences Gates Holes Hoops or anything else.
With Respect Paul.
I hope I am making some sort of sense due to the complexity of this discussion here and many other sites..
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Permalink Reply by grouch on
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Thank You and Shabbat Shalom ! G.
beryl etanah said:right rick!
mah shalomkha?
grouch said:1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
Pirkei Avos chapter 1:1
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