Debate with a Jehovah's witness
Shalom aleychem akhim,
I have this good friend that lives a stones throw away from me who has been with the Jehova's witnesses for quite some time and he and i always love to talk about ofcourse common interests like the Bible.
Now, he has learned alot from me (which he says alot of times that he does learn alot from me) like the fact that the "Greek NT" was actually written in Aramaic and is called the Peshitta.
but ofcourse he being a christian and i a Nazarene we (just like in the old days of our forefathers in faith) have an ongoing dabate about indeed the Torah and it's meaning for us today and after the Ressurection of Yeshua...
I have shown him the following study which opend my eyes about the entire "circumcision debate", see: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/circumcision.html
Now after doing this study with him today he told me i had alot of valid points and that he now understands really what Nazarenes and our theology is all about but he still did not budge on saying that he might eventually turn away from the JH witnesses but now that he knows he can't misuse paul's words on "circumcision and un-circumcision" he just goes on to say different things which are;
* How can we still abide by shabbat and all that "stuff" i mean that has been done away with because "jesus" died and rose and by doing that he has done away with the "old law" and has brought in the "new law of love, the law of christ"...
can anyone give me some more tips and verses that i should use to show him flat out that Torah is still in power by the words of paul because he seems to misuse them the most ....
I have this good friend that lives a stones throw away from me who has been with the Jehova's witnesses for quite some time and he and i always love to talk about ofcourse common interests like the Bible.
Now, he has learned alot from me (which he says alot of times that he does learn alot from me) like the fact that the "Greek NT" was actually written in Aramaic and is called the Peshitta.
but ofcourse he being a christian and i a Nazarene we (just like in the old days of our forefathers in faith) have an ongoing dabate about indeed the Torah and it's meaning for us today and after the Ressurection of Yeshua...
I have shown him the following study which opend my eyes about the entire "circumcision debate", see: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/circumcision.html
Now after doing this study with him today he told me i had alot of valid points and that he now understands really what Nazarenes and our theology is all about but he still did not budge on saying that he might eventually turn away from the JH witnesses but now that he knows he can't misuse paul's words on "circumcision and un-circumcision" he just goes on to say different things which are;
* How can we still abide by shabbat and all that "stuff" i mean that has been done away with because "jesus" died and rose and by doing that he has done away with the "old law" and has brought in the "new law of love, the law of christ"...
can anyone give me some more tips and verses that i should use to show him flat out that Torah is still in power by the words of paul because he seems to misuse them the most ....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on -
Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:
indeed i had forgotten about Zechariyah 14 !! And also about Yezekhiel i have just texted him to read Yezekhiel 40-48 in its entirety and told him "either christianity is wrong or God" because
Christianity says in the future = no Temple, no Yisrael (accept the church) and just like now NO Torah!!
but the Bible says = third and everlasting fysical Temple, Yisrael is what it's all about and the Torah will be for all
so either christianity is wrong or either Alaha Himself was lying to Yezekhiel about the third Temple ?? i'm thinking christianity ;-) hope he will do the same.
p.s. i'm not going easy on him because hes my friend because i have just copied a whole bunch of false prophecies that the JH witnesses have told in the last couple of years for him and i think he will be quite surprised to see his peers are actually satans... shalom !!
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on
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Anaiah Priel (Andrew P) Carlson said:strangely, there are actually a good amount of christians that teach the law of moses is done away with but that there will be a third temple and sacrifices in the millennial kingdom. seems EXTREMELY inconsistent to me.
take a look at this website: http://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-sacrifices.html
unbelievable i know their teachings are so false that they get tangeld up in their own web of lies when you really ask them thorough Biblical questions that you can clearly see they are trying to support themselves by keep on repeating "no no you see the law is ancient but the new law is that of christ" and when i show a christiant that paul offered at the Temple in Acts 22 they say "paul did that sacrifice because he was forced to do so because then he could go preach to the Jews too" so in other words christians are saying "eventhough the religion of the Apostles and paul was the new law of christ without Torah, paul indeed offered at the Temple so that he could fake to the Jews that he was "torah-observant" so that he could go to the Jews and spread the news to them that Judaism/Yisrael and Torah are done away with and there are no more laws"
So to christians paul did not only sell out his beliefs (which according to christians was that Torah was done away with) but also made a false offering so the Jews could all togehter forget about Torah and just start eating pork and shellfish and then God could come and pat paul on the shoulder for being such a good sport and showing everyone how good it is to eat pork and not care about disease (diseases and the ways to deal with them are also a huge part of Torah) or touch a dead body that lies on the road...
is it just me or do christians themselves don't see how stupid their own theology really is??
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Permalink Reply by Yechezquel on -
I hope this can help...
- Any believer of Yahshua as the Messiah is part of Israel, not a different people -- Ephesians 2:12 & 2:19
- Torá is the first five books of the Bible, called by christians "Pentateuch", Torá means "Instruction, map, ordinance, manual" and summarized in love, and love is the fulfilling of the Torah
- Shaul (Paul) delighted in the Toráh -- Romans 7:22
- Paul called the Torah "Holy, Just and good" -- Romans 7:12
- The Torah is perfect -- Psalm 19:7 and James 1:25 (If the Torah is perfect then he would have to be abolished?)
- The Torah is of the Messiah -- Galatians 6:2
- The commandments are not impossible to observe them -- Deuteronomy 30:11-14
- The Faith of Paul is the Torah, he serve Elohim with the Torah -- Acts 24:14
- Paul didn´t transgressed the Torah -- Acts 25:8
- Paul observed Pesach -- Acts 26
- Paul observed Shavuot -- Acts 20:16
- Every believer of the Old and New Testament was saved by grace -- Noach (Gen. 6:8), Moshé (Exodus 33:12 & 13), Gedeón (Judges 6:17), and Israel (Jeremías 31:2)
- The Torah is Emet/Truth (Psalm 119:142)
- The Commandments are emet/truth (Psalm 119:151)
- If we follow the Torah we will have shalom (Psalm 119:165)
- If someone turn away his ear from hearing the Torah, his or her prayer will be an abomination (Proverbs 28:9) Use "Hermeneutic"
- The grace of Elohim did not include a license to sin -- Romans 3:8, Romans 6:1-2, Jud. 4
- Salvation is by faith -- Habacuc 2:4, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38.
- If I don´t keep the commandments of the Torah my faith is dead -- James 2:17, James 2:20
- Read all Psalm 119
- A characteristic of the beast is to change the Torah and the appointed times -- Daniel 7:25
- Torah = Love -- Matthew 22:34-40 & Romans 13:10 & James 2:8
- The JUST shall live by faith, the JUST not the sinner -- Romans 1:17
- Who are the Justs? Romans 2:13 "The doers of the Torah"
- Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the Torah, but under grace? Elohim forbid.
And What is the definition of SIN?
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah.
So....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the Torah through faith? Elohim forbid: yea, we establish the Torah.
- Yahshua the Real and Only Messiah didn´t abolished the Torah -- Matthew 5:17-19
- Definition of sin -- 1 John 3:4 & Romans 7:7
- The sons of Elohim cannot sin (transgress the Torah) -- 1 John 3:7
- If we love the Messiah Yahshua we have to observe His commandments/Torah -- John 14:21
- The Ruach HaQodesh (Holy Spirit) is given to those who obey (Torah) Elohim -- Acts 5:32
- The Renewed Convenant is that the Torah has to be in our hearts and our minds -- Yermiyahu 31:31-34 & Hebrews 8:8-11 & Hebrews 10:15-16 (Remmember we are (believers of Yahshua the Messiah) Israel -- Ephesians 2:12 & 2:19)
- With the faith we confirm the Torah -- Romans 3:31
- Who knows Yahshua? -- The ones who keep the commandments of the Torah (1 John 2:3)
- If we don´t keep commandments and we say that we know Yahshua we are liars -- 1 John 2:4
- If we said that we follow Yahshua we have to walk as He walked (1 John 2:6)
- How did Yahshua walked? -- Observing the Torah (Matthew 5:17)
- The only way we have wisdom is if we observe the Torah -- Deuteronomy 4:6
- Dawid delighted in the Torah -- Psalm 1:2
- If the Torah is in our hearts, our feet won´t fail -- Psalm 37:31
- The Torah was in Dawid´s heart -- Psalm 40:8
- Elohim says that we should keep Torah forever -- Proverbs 3:1, Proverbs 4:2
- Those who forsake the Torah praise the wrong, Those who guard the Torah strive with them. (Proverbs 28:4)
- He who watches over the Torah is a discerning son -- Proverbs 28:7
- Blessed is he who guards the Torah -- Proverbs 29:18
- The most important thing of the Torah -- Mathew 23:23
- The most important commandment of the Torah -- Deu. 6:4, Matthew 22:36-37
- We have to keep the Shabbat -- Hebrews 4:9
A good thought:
Am I loving Elohim? If I´m obeying Him... Am I doing it for love? Would I still obey Him if there is no promise of eternal life? For he who loves does not expect a reward... Do we repent of our sin, simply by understanding that we are sinners, and that we have failed to our Creator? Or, do we do it just because someone told us that if we repent of our sins in that way we are going the be save? Do we obey him because we are just looking for salvation?? What if there is no a promise of eternal life... Would I still sorry and repent of my sins?? If there was no promise of eternal life, yet if I have failed Elohim would it still hurt me?? If today I understand that there is no condemnation for sinners, that there is no hell and that we all will be saved regardless of the sins, Would I still obey Him, love Him, and still keep studying His Word, to know His will and please Him? Or.. Everything I am doing is just because I want to save my life?? If so, then I still don´t love Him... And if I am NOT obeying Him, why I am saying that I love Him?? How I am showing my "love" to Him? Do I do it as He established in his Word to be done? Or.. Do I pretend to love Him by my own way and not His way?? Think about it...
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on
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Thanks brother Yekhezkel ;-)
i will be sure to look into all the verses you have supplied here!
But i have shown him a very insightful study on circumcision and the Apostles already and next i will show him a couple of false JW's prophecies that never came out & the Third Temple/Zekhariyah 14 & i will show him that what he thinks is "the new and revolutionary law of christ" is actually Messiah just mingeling the best and most godly parts of Pharisee/Essene already existing halakhot..
if he still does not accept Nazarene Judaism then, (that would be a sign to me that says eventhough he's my friend... "brainwasheeeed!!") then i will show him the verses you gave to me and if he still won't budge then i will let him give me all the verses that alledgedly say to him "Torah is done and certainly circumcision and Shabbat" and i will show the true Nazarene Biblical perspective on it which will clearly be pro- and not contra-Torah ;-)
thanks amen amen, and i will keep you guys posted on the discussion ;-)
shlama 'laik
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Permalink Reply by Yechezquel on
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Ok! Shalom aleichem brother! Just remember as an advice, have patience and tolerance with him, and pray for him.
Shalom in Yahshua!
Serkan said:Thanks brother Yekhezkel ;-)
i will be sure to look into all the verses you have supplied here!
But i have shown him a very insightful study on circumcision and the Apostles already and next i will show him a couple of false JW's prophecies that never came out & the Third Temple/Zekhariyah 14 & i will show him that what he thinks is "the new and revolutionary law of christ" is actually Messiah just mingeling the best and most godly parts of Pharisee/Essene already existing halakhot..
if he still does not accept Nazarene Judaism then, (that would be a sign to me that says eventhough he's my friend... "brainwasheeeed!!") then i will show him the verses you gave to me and if he still won't budge then i will let him give me all the verses that alledgedly say to him "Torah is done and certainly circumcision and Shabbat" and i will show the true Nazarene Biblical perspective on it which will clearly be pro- and not contra-Torah ;-)
thanks amen amen, and i will keep you guys posted on the discussion ;-)
shlama 'laik
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Permalink Reply by J. Jury (אליהוא) on -
I always point people to either Psalm 19 or Psalm 119.
Then I ask them, "Would you rather take the word from the king (David), or the opinion of the rabbi (Paul)?"
Never mind the fact that most (if not all) of Paul's references are completely misunderstood.
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on
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indeed i love these Psalms too they just show how much YHWH His Torah is "the light" that Yeshua is talking about and in the Aramaic text it clearly shows that ;-)
thank you brothers very much for all your help so far and again my current strategy is (after showing him a great study on circumcision and other Torah referencing verses) to show him Yezekhel 40-48 + Zechariyah 14 + a list of false JW prophecies that never came to be and were changed to new dates after it didn't happen + a self-made paper that clearly shows that what christians as him think is "the new law of love by Christ" is actually the Jewish Messiah spelling out Pharisaic/Essene Halakha for all Jews instead of just a couple of Scribes..
if all the above does not work (which i seriously doubt but christians are stubborn people indeed) i will show him the verses supplied by brother Yezekhel and also Psalm 19 & 119, thank you very much, la chaim ve shalom !
J. Jury said:I always point people to either Psalm 19 or Psalm 119.
Then I ask them, "Would you rather take the word from the king (David), or the opinion of the rabbi (Paul)?"
Never mind the fact that most (if not all) of Paul's references are completely misunderstood.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
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There shall be no more Temple in the temple mount. Period.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Brody on -
OT: I also start to wonder how to interpret Acts 10:13/Acts 11:7 ("kill and eat"). While I do stay away from the "unclean" beasts such as pork as taught by my fellow Messianic believers, most Gentile Christians interpret this to allow us to eat pork and I do not how to respond to this interpretation. (We should credit the JW for not eating blood.) Any ideas?
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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The animals in Acts 10 were not real, they were a vision. Like most visions of unreal animals, they REPRESENTED something. What did they represent? Chapter 11 tells us they represented the Gentiles who were coming to see Kefa (Peter). (To understand why these animals represented Gentiles, see the Book of Enoch, the "Apocalypse of Animals" section). Kefa was not being told to "arise kill and eat" the Gentiles. The command to "arise kill and eat" meant to arise kill and eat [a kosher animal] as part of the normal hospitality of recieving a guest into your home (See Gen. 18:1f for example).
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on
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James Trimm said:The animals in Acts 10 were not real, they were a vision. Like most visions of unreal animals, they REPRESENTED something. What did they represent? Chapter 11 tells us they represented the Gentiles who were coming to see Kefa (Peter). (To understand why these animals represented Gentiles, see the Book of Enoch, the "Apocalypse of Animals" section). Kefa was not being told to "arise kill and eat" the Gentiles. The command to "arise kill and eat" meant to arise kill and eat [a kosher animal] as part of the normal hospitality of recieving a guest into your home (See Gen. 18:1f for example).
indeed very true what you said james but i don't get why so many people read Acts 10 as "we can eat everything, even pork woopie!!" i mean Keefa explains his vision clearly in the text itself that it is about previous unclean gentiles that are now clean for recieving Messiah and Torah...
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Permalink Reply by Chris Brody on
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Serkan said:
Dag, they don't seem to know our laws, they don't keep our holidays...indeed very true what you said james but i don't get why so many people read Acts 10 as "we can eat everything, even pork woopie!!" i mean Keefa explains his vision clearly in the text itself that it is about previous unclean gentiles that are now clean for recieving Messiah and Torah...
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