Debate: Trimm vs. Crawford - Resolved: Is Yeshua the Messiah?
Charleyne,
I accept your challenge.
Trimm vs. Crawford
Be it resolved:
Yeshua was the Messiah
Charlayne Crawford said:
A close study of torah and time to clear your head of all preconceived notions will show that NT and torah DO NOT line up at all in any way shape or form. It is all contrived and forced puzzle pieces if anything- but not reality.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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Only Matthew 15 is scripture, and we have already shown that Matthew 15 can only be shown to demonstrate that Yeshua opposed traditions which conflict with the Word of Elohim. There is no indication here that all traditions are meant.
Onieu bahn Duid said:James, which part would you like Scripture for, the whole thing or a specific part.
The part about what "traditions of men" means:
Matthew 15"Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying,2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; [br] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’[bs] 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[bt] Thus you have made the commandment[bu] of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,And[bv] honor Me with their lips,But their heart is far from Me.9 And in vain they worship Me,Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”" the "teachings of men" Messiah was against was any and all teachings that transgress the commandment of God, make the commandment of God to no effect, that make their hearts far from God, and/or make their worship vain (and/or make them a hypocrite).
Now, you state only the oral traditions from the torah are righteous and pure. what about the written traditions from the torah? are they impure and unrighteous? the very words of the written torah?
as a proof text to the unreliability of sacred sources for establishing doctrine:
From Homilies of Clement:
"Worthy, therefore, of rejection is every one who is willing so much as to hear anything against the monarchy of God; but if any one dares to hear anything against God, as trusting in the Scriptures, let him first of all consider with me that if any one, as he pleases, form a dogma agreeable to himself, and then carefully search the Scriptures, he will be able to produce many testimonies from them in favour of the dogma that he has formed. "How, then, can confidence be placed in them against God, when what every man wishes is found in them?""
and also: "Then Simon: "First confess that if the things written against the Creator are true, he is not above all, since, according to the Scriptures, he is subject to all evil; then afterwards we shall inquire as to the writer."
Then said Peter: "That I may not seem to speak against your want of order through unwillingness to enter upon the investigation, I answer you. I say that if the things written against God are true, they do not show that God is wicked."
Then said Simon: "How can you maintain that?"Then said Peter: "Because things are written opposite to those sayings which speak evil of him; wherefore neither the one nor the other can be confirmed."
Then Simon: "How, then, is the truth to be ascertained, of those Scriptures that say he is evil, or of those that say he is good?"
Then Peter: "Whatever sayings of the Scriptures are in harmony with the creation that was made by Him are true, but whatever are contrary to it are false.""
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Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on -
"Only Matthew 15 is scripture, and we have already shown that Matthew 15 can only be shown to demonstrate that Yeshua opposed traditions which conflict with the Word of Elohim. There is no indication here that all traditions are meant." agreed
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You do realize that an Orthodox Rabbinic Jew would also agree.
Onieu bahn Duid said:"Only Matthew 15 is scripture, and we have already shown that Matthew 15 can only be shown to demonstrate that Yeshua opposed traditions which conflict with the Word of Elohim. There is no indication here that all traditions are meant." agreed
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Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on
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i mean i agree with this: "Matthew 15 can only be shown to demonstrate that Yeshua opposed traditions which conflict with the Word of Elohim. There is no indication here that all traditions are meant."
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
so i don't reject all traditions held and taught by men, but i reject the ones that have the origin distinctly in men and not in the eternal laws of logic.
--i concur. but i only reject those "points" of tradition that can "render G-d's commandment to no effect". i believe this is the only limitation that Messiah has clearly imposed against usage of tradition. the rest are valid and effective.
one example:
the concept of malchut shomayim or ulam haba', is not directly taught in Torah or Chumash (Pentateuch), this merely evolved from the teachings in Tradition and the prophets, centuries later. but this concept of tradition Yeshua employed freely and proclaimed his ministry. "tavo' malchutkha"! so the elders and pharisees were not wrong after all in what they held against the sadducean doctrine. if i must throw away all that the pharisees held i'd lose this one important doctrine which my fathers and mothers enjoyed in their times despite they did not come to the faith in the Nazarene.
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Permalink Reply by Onieu bahn Duid on
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"You do realize that an Orthodox Rabbinic Jew would also agree." in theory of course. but this (in my perspective) is rarely practiced what they preach. what i mean is, they wholeheartedly believe they are not transgressing his commandments, but believing you aren't does not mean you arent. this is why Christianity is not true; but i can tell you the majority of Christians 100% believe they are not teaching contrary to Scripture.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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A close study of torah and time to clear your head of all preconceived notions will show that NT and torah DO NOT line up at all in any way shape or form. It is all contrived and forced puzzle pieces if anything- but not reality.
--if NT was contrived --not a record of historical fact, its author would have been known too soon. the non-believers, jews and gentiles, were there in the first century, they would have testified readily giving the names of the contriving author.
--if it was a forced puzzle it would have been solved by puzzle wizards long ago.
--if it was not a reality it would have not found a way into the Jewish records.
since however that those consequences did not occur or that Jewish record bear it otherwise, the correct conclusion therefore agrees with what the christians and the nazarenes hold concerning authenticity of the NT contents. and the objections by Crawford has become moot.
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Crawford wrote:
The Mess of Messiah
I think I shared with you some time ago why I left messianic thinking. For the benefit of the rest on this thread and to refresh, I will say this- when I learned there is no historical account of the census by herod, no killing of the innocents in history, and Nazareth didnt exist until about 200 yrs after Jesus died, thats a huge problem. The NT itself, in some translations admits that the women caught in adultery is not in orignial texts. I learned long ago that the early church fathers, now called Catholic church, held all manuscripts for 17 yrs and would not allow anyone to see them - well thats 17 yrs to take some writings and create a messiah to take worship away from the One True G-d. We are told this would happen in the prophets. The adversary will try to set his throne above the heavens and higher than the throne of G-d. If you notice the trends of christian history, you will see that in the last 100 yrs Jesus is now called the king of kings and lord of lords, when all through TNK G-d calls Himself these things. I have cleared my head of all preconcieved notions for some time and stopped attending services and reading for almost a year to do exactly this. Then I read only TNK over and over again. 14 times in the past 6 months. I really get it now. REALLY get it! Thsoie who follow Jesus will be lost because they are not worshipping the One True G-d. Now with all that said, I added to my reading the book of Revelation. I found many errors in it that do nto line up with torah at all. But some of it lines up with the prophets. If you do a study on gatekeeping in TNK and the gates of Revelation, you will see that the world to come is not some free for all. It is for the 12 tribes and some of the foreigners. The torah observant ones. Lose Jesus and gain the world to come. Keep your Jesus and lose your life. He didnt save anyone- even himself. Read a book called The Messianic Legacy. It spells out the lies within NT. It shows where JEsus and his 'disciples' were nothing more than a bunch of opposers to Rome. They were zealots, men of anarchy. The word 'cohort' that showed up to gethsamane was a roamn army of 600. That is what a 'cohort' is. HCSB even has that in the back. Anyone in the military knows that NO general would make such a fool of himself to send 600 troops to arrest a peaceful man hanging out with 12 of his friends with no weapons. Get real! Come out of her my people. You are being decieved and it WILL cost you your soul!
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>there is no historical account of the census by herod,
>no killing of the innocents in history,
There is also no historical account of the slaughter of the innocents at the time of Moses. In fact there is no historical account of many events recorded in the Tanak. You must use equal weights and measures when judging the so called "New Testament" books. Remember, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
>and Nazareth didnt exist until about 200 yrs after Jesus died,
Again this is a false assumption. While it is true that no Jewish sources (except of course the Gospels themselves) mention Nazareth until 300 CE, that does not at all prove it did not exist. Again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
In fact Nazareth is mentioned in all four Gospels and in Acts, and we have copies of these books dating back to the early second century. Nazareth is also mentions by pretty much all of the earliest so-called "Church Fathers" in the early second and even late first century.
>The NT itself, in some translations admits that the women caught in adultery
>is not in orignial texts.
It is true that the story of the adulteress (John 7:53-8:11) does not appear in many of the most ancient manuscripts. It does not appear in the Aramaic Peshita or the Aramaic Old Syriac texts. Those Greek manuscripts which do contain it place it in various places some after Luke 21:38 and some after John 7:36 or after 7:52 or even
after 21:24. This story may be the one about a woman of sin which the "Church Father" Papias stated appeared in the Gospel According to the Hebrews (Papias quoted in Eccl. Hist. iii, 39, 17).
This is hardly an evidence against the whole of the so-called NT. There are also long and short versions of both Daniel and Esther, which hardly proves that the Tanak is not authentic.
>I learned long ago that the early church fathers, now called Catholic church,
>held all manuscripts for 17 yrs and would not allow anyone to see them -
>well thats 17 yrs to take some writings and create a messiah to take worship
>away from the One True G-d. We are told this would happen in the prophets.
Your gunna have to cite actual evidence here.
>I added to my reading the book of Revelation.
>I found many errors in it that do nto line up with torah at all.
Of course the Rabbis point out many passages in the Tanak that do not seem to line up with other passages of the Tanak. For example:
R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua b. Levi pointed out a contradiction. it is written, in its time [will the Messiah come], whilst it is also written, I [the Lord] will hasten it!... (b.San. 98a)
In fact the Sixth Rule of Hillel says:
Kayotze bo mimekom akhar (Analogy made from another passage)
This rule tells us that two passages may seem to conflict until compared with a third, which has points of general though not necessarily verbal similarity. Tenach examples:
Leviticus 1:1 "out of the tent of meeting" and Exodus 25:22 "from above the ark of the covenant between the chrubim" seem to disagree until we examine Num. 7:89 where we learn that Moses entered the tent of meeting to hear YHWH speaking from between the cherubim.
1 Chronicles 27:1 explained the numerical disagreement between 2 Samuel 24:9 and 1 Chronicles 21:5.
Exodus 19:20 "YHWH came down upon Mount Sinai" seems to disagree with Deuteronomy 4:36, "Out of Heaven He let you hear His voice." Exodus 20:19 (20:22 in some editions) reconciles the two by telling us that God brought the heavens down to the mount and spoke. (m.Sifra 1:7)
Again we must use equal weights and measures, you must not use one standard to judge Revelation, but another to judge the books of the Tanak.
James Trimm said:Crawford wrote:
The Mess of Messiah
I think I shared with you some time ago why I left messianic thinking. For the benefit of the rest on this thread and to refresh, I will say this- when I learned there is no historical account of the census by herod, no killing of the innocents in history, and Nazareth didnt exist until about 200 yrs after Jesus died, thats a huge problem. The NT itself, in some translations admits that the women caught in adultery is not in orignial texts. I learned long ago that the early church fathers, now called Catholic church, held all manuscripts for 17 yrs and would not allow anyone to see them - well thats 17 yrs to take some writings and create a messiah to take worship away from the One True G-d. We are told this would happen in the prophets. The adversary will try to set his throne above the heavens and higher than the throne of G-d. If you notice the trends of christian history, you will see that in the last 100 yrs Jesus is now called the king of kings and lord of lords, when all through TNK G-d calls Himself these things. I have cleared my head of all preconcieved notions for some time and stopped attending services and reading for almost a year to do exactly this. Then I read only TNK over and over again. 14 times in the past 6 months. I really get it now. REALLY get it! Thsoie who follow Jesus will be lost because they are not worshipping the One True G-d. Now with all that said, I added to my reading the book of Revelation. I found many errors in it that do nto line up with torah at all. But some of it lines up with the prophets. If you do a study on gatekeeping in TNK and the gates of Revelation, you will see that the world to come is not some free for all. It is for the 12 tribes and some of the foreigners. The torah observant ones. Lose Jesus and gain the world to come. Keep your Jesus and lose your life. He didnt save anyone- even himself. Read a book called The Messianic Legacy. It spells out the lies within NT. It shows where JEsus and his 'disciples' were nothing more than a bunch of opposers to Rome. They were zealots, men of anarchy. The word 'cohort' that showed up to gethsamane was a roamn army of 600. That is what a 'cohort' is. HCSB even has that in the back. Anyone in the military knows that NO general would make such a fool of himself to send 600 troops to arrest a peaceful man hanging out with 12 of his friends with no weapons. Get real! Come out of her my people. You are being decieved and it WILL cost you your soul!
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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nice rebuttal James.
congrats.
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