Could those wild Gentile branches grafted in really be Ephraim?
Yeshua said he came for the lost tribes. Could it that the Gentiles that are grafted in are really Ephraim?
Is the whole plan of salvation exclusively with the 12 tribes?
What do my brothers on here think?
Is the whole plan of salvation exclusively with the 12 tribes?
What do my brothers on here think?
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Lev-Tsiyon on -
Well, to begin with, the Law of Levirate (which is being hypothetically indicated here) could only have been invoked if two conditions were met: (1) The widow had no sons, and (2) the two families were living in Israel within a tribal confederacy and there was a danger of the family name dying out and the inheritance lost to that name.
Joe L. Henderson said:polygny???????????
beryl etanah said:So here's some hypothetical questions for you:
If you were born before the Gershom Ban on polygyny, would you hold your tongue if your husband took his dead brother's wife in addition to you?
If you were born a Yemenite Jew in this day and age, and your Yemenite Jew husband's brother died and left a widow behind, would you run to the Jewish Sanhedrin to force him to not marry the widow?
IF............................
-
Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on -
Well if I were a wife, major readjustments would have to occur. Now as to taking a wife of a near kinsman, this was accepted practice in Israel...more a measure to prevent starvation, or entering into other means of support of a widow.
Most marriages of the time appear arranged, as some still are today among Orthodox, so love was not the issue as much as today..or so it would seem.
Lev-Tsiyon said:Well, to begin with, the Law of Levirate (which is being hypothetically indicated here) could only have been invoked if two conditions were met: (1) The widow had no sons, and (2) the two families were living in Israel within a tribal confederacy and there was a danger of the family name dying out and the inheritance lost to that name.
Joe L. Henderson said:polygny???????????
beryl etanah said:So here's some hypothetical questions for you:
If you were born before the Gershom Ban on polygyny, would you hold your tongue if your husband took his dead brother's wife in addition to you?
If you were born a Yemenite Jew in this day and age, and your Yemenite Jew husband's brother died and left a widow behind, would you run to the Jewish Sanhedrin to force him to not marry the widow?
IF............................
-
Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on
-
I think in the event of this discord, the matter would become moot, as the husband would probably issue the dissenter a paper of divorcement. My understanding this form of divorce is still legal, though I am not sure of how it would be recorded in the US.
Lev-Tsiyon said:Well, to begin with, the Law of Levirate (which is being hypothetically indicated here) could only have been invoked if two conditions were met: (1) The widow had no sons, and (2) the two families were living in Israel within a tribal confederacy and there was a danger of the family name dying out and the inheritance lost to that name.
Joe L. Henderson said:polygny???????????
beryl etanah said:So here's some hypothetical questions for you:
If you were born before the Gershom Ban on polygyny, would you hold your tongue if your husband took his dead brother's wife in addition to you?
If you were born a Yemenite Jew in this day and age, and your Yemenite Jew husband's brother died and left a widow behind, would you run to the Jewish Sanhedrin to force him to not marry the widow?
IF............................
-
Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on
-
Jerusalem, Judea, and the uttermost parts of the earth.
-
Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on
-
A well-reasoned-out reply
Lev-Tsiyon said:Ultimately, it must be, since those not of the 12 tribes who convert are grafted into Israel anyway. The common denominator is all believe in Yah'shua and obey Torah irrespective of their racial origin.
-
Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on
-
To say you are not for something, yet live by, it is enigmatic. As a thought, I believe Paul, no mean scholar, stated that if you are to live by the law, you must observe all the law, and that you place yourself under its condemnation. The issue then becomes when did this law subvert into traditional practices, for there are precious few bound boxes of the law to be seen on modern wrists and foreheads--even in video scenes of the orthodox at the wailing wall (in fact, I do not recall seeing any). I recall no marked-up doorposts in LA neighborhoods like Westwood. Nor have I seen, or heard of, reinstated blood sacrifice of ritually designated creatures, etc. Maybe there is something to the doctrine of grace after all?
beryl etanah said:i am not for oral torah because I LIVE BY THE ORAL torah
no wonder why oral torah is not expounded in the NT, oral torah is a way of jewish life it can only be seen, heard, touched and felt in the life of the jew. mashikha and his talmidim did live their lives under the oral and written torah. but one thing to bear in mind is this-- their ministry (mission) was not about oral torah it is about the life and redemptive works of mashikha to become the savior to all mankind, not only for the jews. so, if we want to take on torah we don't go to catholic church nor to a baptist minister. fully qualified rabbis of orthodox judaism are the qualified technicians about the field.
Aharon S. .אהרון ס said:J. Jury, you said:
"How we go about following the commandments of the Torah and the Messiah is, to some degree, open to interpretation, and as such we should respect one another's interpretation of these commandments. For instance, some see the Tefilin and Mezuzah as figurative, while others see them as literal."
It is a proven fact that the original Israelites wrapped tefillin and took these verses literally and figuratively. There are many solid Biblical references to the Jewish Oral Tradition. I don't think there is room for such interpretation when these things are solid historically and Biblically proven. Of course, there are more modern issues of halakha which can be argued, no doubt, but final rule is left to the future supreme Sanhedrin. I'm not a big fan of personal interpretation, I am for Jewish Oral Tradition.
-
Permalink Reply by Yaacov on -
Beryl, you said (regarding Mattityahu 16:19 and 18:18),
"Yeshua gave it for the apostolic mission"Yeshua gave WHAT for the apostolic mission? Please clarify.
Historically, did the Nazarenes do any halachic practices DIFFERENT from the religious non-believing Jewish establishment (a.k.a the Jewish Sanhedrin)?
YES!
So then because they did in fact exhibit autonomy from the Jewish Sanhedrin, it is logical to conclude that Yehoshua did in fact give halachic authority to the disciples.
"read the torah, for the start there were minimal qualifications to become an elder. read pirkei avot, the teachers must first learn from teachers. qualifications are meant for good intentions. tell me yaacov: how many of your college professors took ascendancy over you as student by merely finishing elementary education to themselves? even your churches have bible schools to train your ministers, why would you insist otherwise? and post a name here of that honorable magistrate in your supreme court who learned nothing of laws but catching fish. if you cannot prove it here then do not insist with your self made theory.
ROFL how many college professors are fools? How many ministers in churches are wolves? Are there any honorable magistrates on the "supreme court"?-- they have law degrees and apparently hold little honor for the constitution. YHWH can even raise up a simple shepherd to be a prophet or even the law-giver-- remember Musa/Moses?. Quit honoring the certificates of mere men, it's nauseating. You have to remember, many of us out here are refugees of the church(es)-- we hold very little trust for the offices of mere men-- men and their opinions. Absolute power corrupted the teachers in the church, why would the Jewish Sanhedrin be somehow above human nature? Have they historically proven to be infallible? No. Scripture is the test of all things.
[Beryl speaking of Yehoshua's trade as a carpenter] "yes. neither did He [Yeshua] claim to be a teacher of Moses"
EPIC FAIL!!!!
Ivrim 3:3-6
For this Man [Yehoshua] was counted worthy of more glory than Musa(Moses), seeing that He whoh has built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by some man; but He that built all things is Eloah. And Musa (Moses) truly was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things that were to be spoken later; But the Mashiach as a Son over His own house; whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of our hope firm to the end.
Yochanan 14:23-24
Yehoshua answered and said to him, "If a man loves Me, he will guard My words; and My Abba will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our stay with him. He that loves Me not keeps not My sayings: and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Abba's who sent Me.
For you, Beryl, to suggest that the Son of the Most High had no knowledge of the proper way to obey the Torah, and therefore did not teach His disciples how to properly obey Torah is absurd to the highest degree.
"my taste and opinions are mine. mitzvot are not opinions. i am subjugated to mitzvot. the mitzvot are not under me. what is your problem? "
If i have not misunderstood you, you are of the OPINION that oral torah (from the Jewish Sanhedrin) is binding and necessary for doing the mitzvot. So you are still ultimately operating by your opinion after all.
So If you are a Yemenite Jew, then which Sanhedrin do you submit to? And why?
-
Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
yacov,
"For you, Beryl, to suggest that the Son of the Most High had no knowledge of the proper way to obey the Torah, and therefore did not teach His disciples how to properly obey Torah is absurd to the highest degree."
i did not say that He had no knowledge, who said this aside from you?
if mashikha didn't take the role for teaching halachot it is because He was aware that Hashem has given that work to moses and his successors. teaching halachot of torah is definitely NOT his mission, this is very evident from the prophets and the nt. He could at most "teach", "correct" or "reprove" the teachers/rabbis of halachot, but this is very evident that he had need to erect another yeshiva for new testament. it is admitted from the traditions that the meshikha shall be a light to rabbanim but he is not one demoted as a teacher of halachot, that seat is too low for One (him) whose proper seat is on the right hand of G-d! how greatly you have erred not knowing the scriptures.
"my taste and opinions are mine. mitzvot are not opinions. i am subjugated to mitzvot. the mitzvot are not under me. what is your problem? "
If i have not misunderstood you, you are of the OPINION that oral torah (from the Jewish Sanhedrin) is binding and necessary for doing the mitzvot. So you are still ultimately operating by your opinion after all.
i am orthodox jew why would i repudiate the Jewish Sanhedrin if they stand today? if the rabbis don't believe in mashikha that is their personal problem not mine, for the judgment of G-d shall come upon EACH ONE on the basis of personal thoughts and actions. after all, if sanhedrin stands today not much they can change of halachot as these have been established already from traditions.
So If you are a Yemenite Jew, then which Sanhedrin do you submit to? And why?
i am sephardic, for us there is only one Judaism. i accept orthodox authority whichever flavor they come, so long as they don't affect my personal belief in mashikhah. that is no big thing. we do not theologize as most christians do, history is full of war on the basis of theology, church, man-god, man-only, god-only, or man-not-god, these things we should avoid as possible if we aspire to receive the reward of eternal life. G-d is not as stupid as man; He understands the limitations of our intelligence. keeping the law matters. but after accepting mashikhah.....
keeping the law still matters most.
-
Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
-
yacov says,
[Beryl speaking of Yehoshua's trade as a carpenter] "yes. neither did He [Yeshua] claim to be a teacher of Moses"
EPIC FAIL!!!!
Ivrim 3:3-6
For this Man [Yehoshua] was counted worthy of more glory than Musa(Moses), seeing that He whoh has built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by some man; but He that built all things is Eloah. And Musa (Moses) truly was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things that were to be spoken later; But the Mashiach as a Son over His own house; whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of our hope firm to the end."
so now yacov, what did your Ivrim quote make to fail my position? None. your ivim 3:3-6 did not say anything as to make mashikha like a poor derogated Son, teaching again the same lesson of what his servant taught to the people (law). read correctly my opinion and read your passage right: they do not disprove my opinion, rather, they describe how that the Son has greater honor than musa the servant...... to teach you the same fact that it is improper to derogate a Son to perform a menial job which the Father has already committed to a servant (musa).
the mysteries of mashikha should become a light to halachot, but not a substitute, because they are of different concerns, and both came from one and the same authority: G-d.
-
Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
-
"ROFL how many college professors are fools? "
mine were not
" How many ministers in churches are wolves? "
i don't belong to church and i cannot make such incriminating accusations
" Are there any honorable magistrates on the "supreme court"?-- they have law degrees and apparently hold little honor for the constitution. "
for me they are honorable, without them we are in chaos
" YHWH can even raise up a simple shepherd to be a prophet or even the law-giver-- remember Musa/Moses?. "
so let us be shepherds then? what if today G-d will not make another musa? that's the hole in your argument
" Quit honoring the certificates of mere men, it's nauseating. "
certificates are mere paper. but knowledge is far different: they are not the same. reject the former but for all heaven respect the latter
" You have to remember, many of us out here are refugees of the church(es)-- we hold very little trust for the offices of mere men-- men and their opinions. Absolute power corrupted the teachers in the church, "
sorry for that. (only my opinion) maybe church power currupted because they did not hold torah as authority, they authored their own halachot as far as they interpret the nt?
" why would the Jewish Sanhedrin be somehow above human nature? "
sanhedrin is made up of men, together still they cannot make another one superman: they are not above human nature, they are below G-d like all other men, but they have work to do that could affect all men who hold effecient value upon their authority. but if you are not among those men don't worry, their halachot will not affect you. you can tailor-make your own sanhedrin, a kind whom you can easily butt or reprimand for things you don't like, whatever you do, anyway their origin, their powers and authority came from you and your comrades, no big deal, you can reverse their halachot as easily as changing your shirt
" Have they historically proven to be infallible? No. Scripture is the test of all things. "
Jewish sanhedrin never claimed infallibility: there were no popes then inside! :-)
will a non-Jewish sanhedrin prove to be infallible? No too. and if you rely on the mere private interpretation of scriptures, the way reformation divided all things under heaven, the same will happen to you, you shall have as many as two thousand bantering sanhedrins in less a century from now.
humility, obedience and patience are the three virtues most difficult to find among those who claim they know about scriptures
-
Permalink Reply by 命 on
-
Indeed it is amazing to be part of this great, supernatural event - many of us do not come from a religious background, but atheist, which many people dont realize is a religion of itself - therefore many feel that they are inducted not only into a more truthful interpretation of religion, but religion itself.
However, atheists have much faith.
They like to put people into 2 categories: theist, and atheist. And pretend atheism is some sort of standard that everyone should "at some level" accept, at least for the sake of dealing with atheists.
Atheism is not a common grounds for all religions, ways, philosophies and world-views -- it is a distinct world-view and religion of itself, that is in disharmony with all other paths. It has its own dogmas, and faith, and supernatural beliefs in self-creating big bangs and evolutionary powers.
Jeremiah Moses said:I have to agree with you shawn 100% and its all in the bible ... but its one of the most scarest things that we really could be apart of this??? REally
-
Permalink Reply by 命 on
-
I don't see how any person who has read Torah could disagree with the statement you wrote here.
Although Isralite Rabbis and Cohanim could indeed hold respect for the non-Israelite teachers and priests that were pagan, and those whom YHWH spoke through (Melchi-Tzedek and Yethro for example), they did not hold any meaninfgul reverence for prophets such as Balaam, who even did communicate with YHWH to some degree, yet did evil, and who would curse Israel.
However, regarding your use of the name Musa - is not the name written M-SH-H ? Perhaps even "Mashah" could be a more correct interpretation - sounds more like Mashiach, whereas we have the name, which I contend Moses is close to being an Egyptian "slave name" in many ways.
Yaacov said:ROFL how many college professors are fools? How many ministers in churches are wolves? Are there any honorable magistrates on the "supreme court"?-- they have law degrees and apparently hold little honor for the constitution. YHWH can even raise up a simple shepherd to be a prophet or even the law-giver-- remember Musa/Moses?. Quit honoring the certificates of mere men, it's nauseating. You have to remember, many of us out here are refugees of the church(es)-- we hold very little trust for the offices of mere men-- men and their opinions. Absolute power corrupted the teachers in the church, why would the Jewish Sanhedrin be somehow above human nature? Have they historically proven to be infallible? No. Scripture is the test of all things.
© 2013 Created by James Trimm.
