Nazarene Space

Could those wild Gentile branches grafted in really be Ephraim?

Yeshua said he came for the lost tribes. Could it that the Gentiles that are grafted in are really Ephraim?

Is the whole plan of salvation exclusively with the 12 tribes?

What do my brothers on here think?

Views: 90

Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Sevynn Leverette, your eloquence almost had me. you have said it well except i have few questions-
in saying "My sheep will know my Voice and follow Me, He is the correct interpretation of the Torah."
i get it right that He (Mashikha) IS (not only has) the correct interpretation of the Torah. But how can you assure me that you or anyone Efrahemite has the correct interpretation of torah? especially in matters concerning fine-grained halachot?
if your claim should extend to each one returning ephrahymite then necessarily each one of them is an halachic authority who has no need of anyone else to teach him. that would be a very special day worldwide, but that day is not today.

sevynn leverette said:
Thus says YEWE of hosts, In those days ten men from all languages of the nations take hold,yes, they shall take hold of the edge ofthe garment of a man a Yahudite, saying "Let us go with you, for you have heard the Most High Authority is with you." "I have only come for the lost sheep of Yisrael" The sceptre shall not turn aside from Yahudah, nor a Torah giver from between his feetuntil Shiloh comes;and He has come; and to Him is obedience of peoples. The blessings of your father have excelled the blessings of my ancesters, up to the limit of everlasting hills. They are on the head of Yosef, and on the crown of the head of him "WHO WAS SEPARATED FROM HIS BROTHERS!" And He was Sovereign in Yeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered the tribes of Yisrael.

Efrayim was separated from Yahudah by the command of YEWE! He chose to discipline them for their type of worship. Yahudah has no say in the return of Efrayim, since they were more treacherous than their sister. Efrayim can only return straight and upright and provoke their brothers to jealousy. My sheep will know my Voice and follow Me, He is the correct interpretation of the Torah. With the Ruach haQodesh present Efrayim does not need Yahudah to teach tem Torah. But the anointing whch you have recieved rom Him stas in you, ad you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as the same anointing does teach you concerning all, and s true and no falsehood, and even as it has taught you, you stay in Him.

Shalom

James Pierce said:
Rick,

I have nothing against my brother Judah, only that he has taken on man-made traditions, and fenced it around the written Torah.

Rick & Debbie Toole said:
James, while I am not telling you what to do , we must first ( Ephraim ) see ourseleves as the
Prodigal son spoke of in Luke 15 , One does not have to look far to see the agnst between Judah and Ephraim . Epharim has to let loose of the stiff necked view of him alone and realize,
we don't make the rules . As one reads on , we see in verse 28-32 a Feast . Our goal is unity
James Pierce said:
I want to know about getting citizen ship in Israel. Why is it hard for those who are not Jews to get in and settle? How is it actually living there in Israel?
Baruch Hashem YEWE, beryl etanah, i can't prove to you anything however the Ruach haQadesh will lead you in study and truth. As we both agree the Torah became flesh becoming the Oral Torah. YeweShua need not rewrite the Five Books of Moshe to have an Oral Torah, just correctly interpret for all to clearly see. Even the current Sahredrin of the day needed correct interpretation, so placing that same burden on flesh of today is a thought worth considering!

As YeweShua spoke, O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe in all the prophets have spoken! From the beginning at Moshe and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matter concerning Himself. And the words I spoke while I was still with you, that all be correctly interpreted that were in the Torah of Moshe and the Prophets, and the Psalms concerning Me, Then He open their mind to the Scriptures.

However, two men had remained in the camp, The name of one was Eldad, and the name of other Medad, and the Spirit rested upon them. NOW they were listed among them, but did not go out to the Tent, and they prophesied in the camp. And a young man ran and informed Moshe, and said Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp. And YeweShua son of Nun, and Moshe's assistant from his youth said, Moshe my master forbid them! Then Moshe said to him, "are you jealous for my sake? Oh, that all the people of YEWE were prophets, that YEWE would put his Spirit upon them.

YEWE has declared the return of Efyrayim/Yeshurun, and provoking their brothers to jealousy. Just as they could not recognize Yosef, they at first will not recognize Efrayim/Yeshurun. It sounds as if the prophesy is beginning to take hold as many Yahudim feel the need to correct and straighten out Efrayim on Torah, Baruch haShem YEWE.

Shalom



beryl etanah said:
Sevynn Leverette, your eloquence almost had me. you have said it well except i have few questions-
in saying "My sheep will know my Voice and follow Me, He is the correct interpretation of the Torah."
i get it right that He (Mashikha) IS (not only has) the correct interpretation of the Torah. But how can you assure me that you or anyone Efrahemite has the correct interpretation of torah? especially in matters concerning fine-grained halachot?
if your claim should extend to each one returning ephrahymite then necessarily each one of them is an halachic authority who has no need of anyone else to teach him. that would be a very special day worldwide, but that day is not today.

sevynn leverette said:
Thus says YEWE of hosts, In those days ten men from all languages of the nations take hold,yes, they shall take hold of the edge ofthe garment of a man a Yahudite, saying "Let us go with you, for you have heard the Most High Authority is with you." "I have only come for the lost sheep of Yisrael" The sceptre shall not turn aside from Yahudah, nor a Torah giver from between his feetuntil Shiloh comes;and He has come; and to Him is obedience of peoples. The blessings of your father have excelled the blessings of my ancesters, up to the limit of everlasting hills. They are on the head of Yosef, and on the crown of the head of him "WHO WAS SEPARATED FROM HIS BROTHERS!" And He was Sovereign in Yeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered the tribes of Yisrael.

Efrayim was separated from Yahudah by the command of YEWE! He chose to discipline them for their type of worship. Yahudah has no say in the return of Efrayim, since they were more treacherous than their sister. Efrayim can only return straight and upright and provoke their brothers to jealousy. My sheep will know my Voice and follow Me, He is the correct interpretation of the Torah. With the Ruach haQodesh present Efrayim does not need Yahudah to teach tem Torah. But the anointing whch you have recieved rom Him stas in you, ad you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as the same anointing does teach you concerning all, and s true and no falsehood, and even as it has taught you, you stay in Him.

Shalom

James Pierce said:
Rick,

I have nothing against my brother Judah, only that he has taken on man-made traditions, and fenced it around the written Torah.

Rick & Debbie Toole said:
James, while I am not telling you what to do , we must first ( Ephraim ) see ourseleves as the
Prodigal son spoke of in Luke 15 , One does not have to look far to see the agnst between Judah and Ephraim . Epharim has to let loose of the stiff necked view of him alone and realize,
we don't make the rules . As one reads on , we see in verse 28-32 a Feast . Our goal is unity
James Pierce said:
I want to know about getting citizen ship in Israel. Why is it hard for those who are not Jews to get in and settle? How is it actually living there in Israel?
Aharon S. .אהרון ס said:
Ephraim is upright WITHOUT explanation and proper application of the written Torah? I think not!

Show me ALL of Yeshua`'s halakhoth, where are all his teachings. Volumes could fill what he said and did, and we don't know a small fraction of it. Is it lost? NOPE! =) They exist but Ephraim doesn't like them.

I can always tell if people have studied these things, as they say, or not. If you truly want to study Jewish Oral Tradition, I suggest an English translation of all Talmudic law (from various books) which has been codified stated plainly in the wonderful Mishne Torah by Rambam.

Aharon... You are completely ignoring the fact that Yahweh Himself has separated the two kingdoms, Ephraim and Judah, and throughout Scripture and History the two have been COMPLETELY separate entities. He has caused each house to remain separate from one another; who are YOU to say that the houses should merge? Yes, both are part of the Nation of Israel. And there is ONE Torah for both houses; but to say that Ephraim needs to come back to Judah (or learn Jewish Law) is completely contrary to how Yahweh has consistently acted throughout Scripture in keeping the two houses separate.

Food for thought: Yahshua rebuked the "oral Torah", He consistently rebuked "their" halacha. Why would you urge anyone to follow it? For extra credit... read and study Ephesians 2:13-18, then try to defend the Oral Torah.

Letter of Barnabas 3:6, "My brethren, He who is long-suffering made these things known to us ahead of time, foreseeing that the people whom He had prepared for His beloved would believe in simplicity, and that we might not be as novices to shipwreck ourselves upon conversion to their (Jewish) law."

This is not an out and out attack on Judaism, nor on the majority of the teachings presented here. The "Oral Torah" is (supposedly) fine for the house of Judah, after all, they have never been divorced from Yahweh. However, Ephraim MUST return pure,
I have to chime in here. YHWH in his sovereignty allowed the division. Ephraim rebelled against Judah turned to their own gods, non-levitical priests and false temple. From that point forward the true faith became known as Judaism.
One Gentile is not a Hebrew word it does not exist in Hebrew, it is from the Latin.

The sojourner is to be circumcised as the native.

Efrayim and Manasseh may all our sons be akin too, both adopted sojourners, Efrayim holding the birth right?

We can hide behind the slanderous terms for all people, gentile is one such word, oh goy!

i have lived many years with hidden agenda's to redirect the hatred to exclude or include, we will again to into captivity being shipped by boat to foreign lands another four hundred years?

The point is Yahudah is still excluding who YEWE has made clean?

He placed them on a four coner sheet to be made clean, I came only for the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael!

Baruch Hashem YEWE
j jury it is unfair to impose paul's letter to gentile ephesians as the only source of proof for oral tradition, it is like using your own love letter alone as proof that my husband does not love me, that's too nasty unrealistic. bear in mind that nt is not a record of oral tradition but of the life and teachings of mashikha. what about if i take your same challenge this time i'd use talmud and midrashim as proof for oral torah? or if you don't honor these, let me use pentateuch to prove oral torah is divinely instituted? for actually neither can you prove your efrayim-ish doctrines apart from tanakh, so don't put anyone into the cage of that goyish epistle to ephesians if you want to talk about oral torah, or else i'd tell you "prove to me your efrayimish doctrines using the epistle to philemon" can you?
J Jury perhaps it would help to address some of your statements, as just a few years ago I had some of these very same thoughts.

Aharon... You are completely ignoring the fact that Yahweh Himself has separated the two kingdoms, Ephraim and Judah, and throughout Scripture and History the two have been COMPLETELY separate entities.

It is very true Hashem seperated the two houses into completely separate entities. But Hashem did not seperate them in order to create two different forms of Torah/oral Torah. In fact, right when the kingdom split Hashem told the northern kingdom that they should in all ways adhere to the Torah as was in the hands of Judah.

1 kings 11:38 "And it shall be if you obey all that I command you, and shall walk (Halacha) in my ways, and do what is right in my eyes, to guard my laws and my commands, AS MY SERVANT DAVID did..."

From the very beginning the northern kingdom was not to be seperated in order to create some alternate more pure form of serving Hashem. They were seperated soley to punish Shlomoh, but in all other ways they were to remain Torah and oral Torah observant Israelites.

He has caused each house to remain separate from one another; who are YOU to say that the houses should merge?
Again it is true that Hashem designated a specific time frame in which the houses were to be separate. Originally the time frame would not have been so long, but sincethe time EPHRAIMITES got their they have become EXTREMELY PRIDEFUL and REBELIOUS against the TORAH and their spiritual mentors THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. Because Ephraim rebelled they were cast into all nations and cut off from the covenant (Hoshea 1). As you stated above Aharon has no right to say when the houses should merge, but Yeshua did. According to Yeshua their time frame to be separate ended 2000 years ago.

John 11:51-52 "...Yeshua was about to die for the nation (Judah), and not for the nation only but to gather together into one the children of Elohim scattered (Ephraim) abroad."

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who has made both one, and having broken down the partition of the barrier..."

From Yeshua on, the mission has been to regather the COMPLETELY REBELIOUS AND WICKED AND IDOLATROUS AND STUBBORN AND PRIDEFUL EPHRAIMITES and bring them back to their brother Judah so that they can be re-educated in Torah both the revealed and hidden aspects of Torah. the NT speaks of that which is revealed and that which is hidden. These are idiomatic expressions for the written and oral Torah. ALWAYS REMEMBER THE STORY OF THE PRODIGAL SON. The younger brother is the one who is "far off". JUDAH IS THE ONE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO HAS BEEN WITH THE FATHER........AND REMEMBER in the story of the prodigal son the Father said to JUDAH..."Son you are ALWAYS WITH ME, all I have is yours" YESHUA TEACHES US that the house of JUDAH is ALWAYS with the father and they have received all from him....all spiritual understanding and authority.

Yes, both are part of the Nation of Israel. And there is ONE Torah for both houses; but to say that Ephraim needs to come back to Judah (or learn Jewish Law) is completely contrary to how Yahweh has consistently acted throughout Scripture in keeping the two houses separate.

This statement kinda makes me sad. I think it is missing the essence of the whole story.

You have said Hashem has consistently acted throughout scriptures in keeping the two houses seperate. I would imagine nothing makes Hashem more sad than Israel being divided into two. Initially he seperated them, against his highest will/plan, to punish Shlomoh. He in no way desires thier seperation but for a time, though painful, was necessary. HOWEVER. ALWAYS KEEP THE PRODIGAL SON IN MIND. In the story of the prodigal son Yes, the father had two SEPARATE sons. BUT one of them choose to walk away. The fathers intent was that they stay side by side and work together and in most ways not even appear to be separate. BUT JOSEPH WALKED AWAY. Remember the fathers excitement when he saw Joseph returning from the dead and returning to his brother Judah. EACH STEP THAT WE TAKE TOWARDS JUDAH, IS A STEP TOWARDS THE FATHER, AND STEP TOWARDS PLEASING OUR FATHER. Further you said, that Hashem consistently through out scripture acted to keep the houses seperate. If you consider the NT scripture, then your statement is not true. the NT is entire manual on how to get the two houses back together. Most of that process is Ephraim relearning Torah, oral Torah, and sprituality from Judah.

Remember what Yeshua said to the Samaritan (Ephraimite woman)

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because the deliverance is of the Yehudim (from the Jewish people)".

This was Yeshua's kind way of saying...You Ephraimites know absolutely nothing of spiritual matters. You are devoid of all good spiritual decision making. You are devoid of all spiritual understanding in matters of Torah. On the other hand we of the house of Judah, we rabbi's have maintained all spiritual understanding and all observance of Torah. We have every right to tell you what to do and what not to do.

Now Yeshua was/is a teacher of the oral Torah but he did take issue with the corrupt form of shammai oral Torah. but in almost all ways was in agreement with Hillel. So yes he correct Judah on certain small details, but for us, we have no right to...and our humility should prevent us....from even suggesting that we shouldnt be tainted with the oral Torah of Judah.....rather we should be greatful we have been allowed back to the table to eat such awesome spiritual food once again.
beryl etanah said:
j jury it is unfair to impose paul's letter to gentile ephesians as the only source of proof for oral tradition, it is like using your own love letter alone as proof that my husband does not love me, that's too nasty unrealistic. bear in mind that nt is not a record of oral tradition but of the life and teachings of mashikha. what about if i take your same challenge this time i'd use talmud and midrashim as proof for oral torah? or if you don't honor these, let me use pentateuch to prove oral torah is divinely instituted? for actually neither can you prove your efrayim-ish doctrines apart from tanakh, so don't put anyone into the cage of that goyish epistle to ephesians if you want to talk about oral torah, or else i'd tell you "prove to me your efrayimish doctrines using the epistle to philemon" can you?

You actually make somewhat of a valid point; although I disagree with the actual outcome of your decision, I agree wiht the "how you got there" part. This is the same thing I keep saying... what's binding to the House of Judah (the oral torah, etc) is not binding for me as an Ephraimite. Logically, and conversely, what's binding for me (the Apostolic writings, what you deem to be "that goyish epistle to ephesians") isn't perhaps intended to be binding for the House of Judah.

Do we agree thus far?
Shawn, I see that it grieves you that the houses ever were separated; I appreciate this, for it grieves me as well. However, unity cannot be found in compelling Ephraim to subject themselves to a set of codes that was developed by and intended for the House of Judah exclusively. The fact of the matter is, regardless of any emotional value we assign to it, the houses of Ephraim and Judah are separate entities from one another.

The reunion of the two houses will be great and full of splendor, but it is exceedingly prideful for Judah to think that Ephraim will come back on their terms (the Oral Torah). Ephraim will come back in purity and simplicity, not burdened by "Jewish Law" (Oral Torah), but willingly following "Yahweh's Law" (Torah).

Gospel of Thomas 48, Yahshua said, "If two (Ephraim and Judah) make peace with each other in this one house (the whole nation of Israel), they will say to the mountain, 'Move Away,' and it will move away."
Those that love discipline love knowledge,those that don't are stupid,said so well by King Solomon.

As Efrayim accepts discipline from the Father and returns straight and upright.

However, the point is instruction,teaching, direction,tohit the mark, flow like a river, all this discussion of law,right and wrong, seems to leave room for repentance, teshuvah, prayer, and meditation.?

Torah the preeminence of all Scripture,can we get to a right ruling from the Book of Instructions/Torah; relying on completed Torah placed next to the ark of the covenant as a witness against you;

not opinion, talmud, not even YeweShua, just the Book of Instructions, teaching, direction, and hitting the mark!

The Torah is a witness, you are the judge of your own decisions,the Covenant Giver is standing firm and changes not, we must change,or the lack of discipline will be upon our own heads,our own opinions, our lack of accepting instruction.

Moshe, Job, YeweShua, all prayed for their freinds who lacked discipline, wisdom, and understanding, who all spoke loudly with unbridled tongues.

My heart overflows with a comprehensive upright Word;
as i ascribe my works to the Highest Authority;
my tongue is the pen of an expeditious writer,
with favor being cast upon Your lips;
naturally without question;
YEWE, our Highest Authority has blessed You evermore!

Shalom
AGREE IN LOVE AND PEACE

J. Jury said:
beryl etanah said:
j jury it is unfair to impose paul's letter to gentile ephesians as the only source of proof for oral tradition, it is like using your own love letter alone as proof that my husband does not love me, that's too nasty unrealistic. bear in mind that nt is not a record of oral tradition but of the life and teachings of mashikha. what about if i take your same challenge this time i'd use talmud and midrashim as proof for oral torah? or if you don't honor these, let me use pentateuch to prove oral torah is divinely instituted? for actually neither can you prove your efrayim-ish doctrines apart from tanakh, so don't put anyone into the cage of that goyish epistle to ephesians if you want to talk about oral torah, or else i'd tell you "prove to me your efrayimish doctrines using the epistle to philemon" can you?

You actually make somewhat of a valid point; although I disagree with the actual outcome of your decision, I agree wiht the "how you got there" part. This is the same thing I keep saying... what's binding to the House of Judah (the oral torah, etc) is not binding for me as an Ephraimite. Logically, and conversely, what's binding for me (the Apostolic writings, what you deem to be "that goyish epistle to ephesians") isn't perhaps intended to be binding for the House of Judah.

Do we agree thus far?
So division of the north was to be a punishment for Shlomo:
It was to be sort of "political dismemberment" but religious unity remains as duty?
i think i must here agree.....

Shawn said:
J Jury perhaps it would help to address some of your statements, as just a few years ago I had some of these very same thoughts.

Aharon... You are completely ignoring the fact that Yahweh Himself has separated the two kingdoms, Ephraim and Judah, and throughout Scripture and History the two have been COMPLETELY separate entities.

It is very true Hashem seperated the two houses into completely separate entities. But Hashem did not seperate them in order to create two different forms of Torah/oral Torah. In fact, right when the kingdom split Hashem told the northern kingdom that they should in all ways adhere to the Torah as was in the hands of Judah.

1 kings 11:38 "And it shall be if you obey all that I command you, and shall walk (Halacha) in my ways, and do what is right in my eyes, to guard my laws and my commands, AS MY SERVANT DAVID did..."

From the very beginning the northern kingdom was not to be seperated in order to create some alternate more pure form of serving Hashem. They were seperated soley to punish Shlomoh, but in all other ways they were to remain Torah and oral Torah observant Israelites.

He has caused each house to remain separate from one another; who are YOU to say that the houses should merge?
Again it is true that Hashem designated a specific time frame in which the houses were to be separate. Originally the time frame would not have been so long, but sincethe time EPHRAIMITES got their they have become EXTREMELY PRIDEFUL and REBELIOUS against the TORAH and their spiritual mentors THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. Because Ephraim rebelled they were cast into all nations and cut off from the covenant (Hoshea 1). As you stated above Aharon has no right to say when the houses should merge, but Yeshua did. According to Yeshua their time frame to be separate ended 2000 years ago.

John 11:51-52 "...Yeshua was about to die for the nation (Judah), and not for the nation only but to gather together into one the children of Elohim scattered (Ephraim) abroad."

Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who has made both one, and having broken down the partition of the barrier..."

From Yeshua on, the mission has been to regather the COMPLETELY REBELIOUS AND WICKED AND IDOLATROUS AND STUBBORN AND PRIDEFUL EPHRAIMITES and bring them back to their brother Judah so that they can be re-educated in Torah both the revealed and hidden aspects of Torah. the NT speaks of that which is revealed and that which is hidden. These are idiomatic expressions for the written and oral Torah. ALWAYS REMEMBER THE STORY OF THE PRODIGAL SON. The younger brother is the one who is "far off". JUDAH IS THE ONE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO HAS BEEN WITH THE FATHER........AND REMEMBER in the story of the prodigal son the Father said to JUDAH..."Son you are ALWAYS WITH ME, all I have is yours" YESHUA TEACHES US that the house of JUDAH is ALWAYS with the father and they have received all from him....all spiritual understanding and authority.

Yes, both are part of the Nation of Israel. And there is ONE Torah for both houses; but to say that Ephraim needs to come back to Judah (or learn Jewish Law) is completely contrary to how Yahweh has consistently acted throughout Scripture in keeping the two houses separate.

This statement kinda makes me sad. I think it is missing the essence of the whole story.

You have said Hashem has consistently acted throughout scriptures in keeping the two houses seperate. I would imagine nothing makes Hashem more sad than Israel being divided into two. Initially he seperated them, against his highest will/plan, to punish Shlomoh. He in no way desires thier seperation but for a time, though painful, was necessary. HOWEVER. ALWAYS KEEP THE PRODIGAL SON IN MIND. In the story of the prodigal son Yes, the father had two SEPARATE sons. BUT one of them choose to walk away. The fathers intent was that they stay side by side and work together and in most ways not even appear to be separate. BUT JOSEPH WALKED AWAY. Remember the fathers excitement when he saw Joseph returning from the dead and returning to his brother Judah. EACH STEP THAT WE TAKE TOWARDS JUDAH, IS A STEP TOWARDS THE FATHER, AND STEP TOWARDS PLEASING OUR FATHER. Further you said, that Hashem consistently through out scripture acted to keep the houses seperate. If you consider the NT scripture, then your statement is not true. the NT is entire manual on how to get the two houses back together. Most of that process is Ephraim relearning Torah, oral Torah, and sprituality from Judah.

Remember what Yeshua said to the Samaritan (Ephraimite woman)

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because the deliverance is of the Yehudim (from the Jewish people)".

This was Yeshua's kind way of saying...You Ephraimites know absolutely nothing of spiritual matters. You are devoid of all good spiritual decision making. You are devoid of all spiritual understanding in matters of Torah. On the other hand we of the house of Judah, we rabbi's have maintained all spiritual understanding and all observance of Torah. We have every right to tell you what to do and what not to do.

Now Yeshua was/is a teacher of the oral Torah but he did take issue with the corrupt form of shammai oral Torah. but in almost all ways was in agreement with Hillel. So yes he correct Judah on certain small details, but for us, we have no right to...and our humility should prevent us....from even suggesting that we shouldnt be tainted with the oral Torah of Judah.....rather we should be greatful we have been allowed back to the table to eat such awesome spiritual food once again.

Reply to Discussion

RSS

 

 

 



















 

LINKS

 


 

 

 

Badge

Loading…

© 2013   Created by James Trimm.

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service