Torah cf. Grace:
I believe we are not under torah, but grace as it says in the scripture.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Pearl on -
Exactly - there is no verse. It is a stretch of the word by man's interpretations.
I do not think that starting a car has anything to do with "Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. " Even if you live in your car, maybe especially if you live, you shouldn't kindle a fire in your car. I think it has more to do with kindling wrath - man's wrath and especially Yahweh's wrath.
As far as leaving your place, the first use in the scriptures of this word is in Gen 1:9, and is about a gathering of the waters under heaven unto one place, showing the dry land.
A Sabbth's day journey can also mean a way of holding fast.
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:"
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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on
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Well there is not tradition here... starting a car IS lighting a fire. That's how a car works.
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Permalink Reply by Yishmael on -
for Alaha's sake i myself was once part of a protestant church and study the christian thoelogy and the fact that i concluded it to be inconclusive and based on wrong and totally taken out of context verses with total neglection of Second Temple Judaism and it's many facets shows me just how rightly Apostle Keefa wrote about the christians who were already perverting the Nazerene Jewish teachings of the made flesh Torah (who is Messiah):
"15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; 16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Christianity has nothing to do with the Torah and Judaism so seeing that the religion of all the Apostles were Judaism and that we can clearly see they said in Acts 15 that the new believers should start off with a sort of Noachide law until they have understood the entire Torah so they can practise it by going to the synagogue ;)
i'm really fed up with christians acting as if they are saved yet they do not have one biblical ritual or act as to support their faith yet we have the Biblical Torah next to our Love and Faith in Alaha the Creator so again where do we compare with christians?? And may i remind you all again that according to Church Fathers the early christians were not to use the "OT" because it was "Judaizing" to use it so i still don't understand why christians today use it..
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Permalink Reply by James Pierce on -
Samuel,
Let's read this scripture in context to get a better understanding of what verse 14 of Eph 2 is really saying. Eph 2:11-19,"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God."
I am very familiar with Ephesians 2, and its often misinterpreted because of the lack of understanding of Hebrew culture and thought, and historical background.
The question a good bible student must ask him/her self is,"What is the hostility wall that is put up?"Samuel, in ancient times, there was much hostility between Hebrew and Greek. Many commandments were created just for Hebrews in staying away from Gentile peoples. There is no teaching in the Torah that separates a Hebrew from a Gentile, especially if that Gentile is coming to faith. Yeshua did not come and abolish the Torah, for He stated in Matt 5:17-19 that He came not to abolish the Torah, but to DO AND PERFORM the law(fulfill).
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on -
Many commandments were created just for Hebrews in staying away from Gentile peoples.
yes for the sake of torah standards like that of purity, holiness, religious practice
There is no teaching in the Torah that separates a Hebrew from a Gentile,
there are plenty of this, just give enough time to read chumash (pentateuch). the oral halachot concerning this requirement are based on the written dicta, either directly or by logical necessity. similar to this need of "separatism" is what happened to the nt ecclesiastic writers (e.g. colosians, ephesians, corinthians 1&2) where their materials clearly indicate an attempt to "separate" and identify the "church" away from the class of gentiles; what happened to this attempt along their proximate history i have not found yet a work that treated this interesting concept. but centuries later, up to present, the attempt seems to have only given a confusion of semantics, it fell out of use immediately so much that, reading from the modern time vatican II documents Lumen gentium, the church identifies herself with "Cristus" but develops a different ecclesiology by identifying the church as "the new people of G-d" which is the new Israel. this panicked solution by an ancient institution is an evidence that even the great minds in the roman curia tacitly admit that, apart from applying halachot as the true measuring stick, it is impossible to separate the church from the concept of nations or gentiles.
James Pierce said:Samuel,
Let's read this scripture in context to get a better understanding of what verse 14 of Eph 2 is really saying. Eph 2:11-19,"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God." I am very familiar with Ephesians 2, and its often misinterpreted because of the lack of understanding of Hebrew culture and thought, and historical background. The question a good bible student must ask him/her self is,"What is the hostility wall that is put up?"Samuel, in ancient times, there was much hostility between Hebrew and Greek. Many commandments were created just for Hebrews in staying away from Gentile peoples. There is no teaching in the Torah that separates a Hebrew from a Gentile, especially if that Gentile is coming to faith. Yeshua did not come and abolish the Torah, for He stated in Matt 5:17-19 that He came not to abolish the Torah, but to DO AND PERFORM the law(fulfill).
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Permalink Reply by Yaacov on -
Well there is not tradition here... starting a car IS lighting a fire. That's how a car works.
Haven't you guys ever gone camping??? If you have, you know that KINDLING a fire is a heck of a lot more laborious than starting a car. Starting a working modern car is no work at all, no worse than turning a doorknob, kindling a fire is a ton of work, especially if there be any hint of dampness. Any of you who use electricity on Shabbat are using a fire, but it is NOT a kindled fire, it is a perpetually burning fire at the coal based power plant, nobody there is kindling a fire, they are only STOKING it. The coal fire heats steam and the steam drives the turbines turning the generators and that produces the "fire" of electricity. So you are powering your phones and computers by fire albeit indirectly. There is no prohibition against stoking a fire on Shabbat, only a prohibition against kindling a fire. (Athough someone getting paid for stoking a fire on Shabbat is in violation for getting paid for it-- unless on salary, but who if any of you shuts off the main circuit breaker at dark on friday evening?) An electrical spark is an element of fire, ancient cultures viewed electrical phenomenon as a type of fire. When you start a car or have an electronic ignition gas stove, that is simply transferring one "fire" to ignite another, but it is NOT kindling. If anyone wants to condemn anyone for turning on a gas stove (to heat up something), then to be logically consistent, that person must also condemn him/herself for using electricity that comes from the power plant generated by the generator, turned by the turbines, moved by the steam, heated by coal fire, stoked by the coal technician-- all based on the erroneous assumption that stoke=kindle.
If you really want to split hairs on it, the argument could be made that a gas stove with a pilot light instead of a electronic ignition is more righteous, because it does not need any of the electrical "fire" from the power plant, and it does not start a fire, but only increases (or stokes) the already burning fire of the pilot ligh. But hey,regardless if it's electronic or piloted, it's the same amount of non-work as turning on your computer.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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anyone may drive his car on shabbat but an orthodox may not.
it depends on how you interpret spinning (starting) an engine. you like it or not combustion engine operates by combustion. camping bonfires or camping cooking is also combustion. combustion is transforming matter from one state (solid) to another (gas) and it is "work" in the concept of physics.
anyone who thinks G-d does not take internal combustion of engine as "fire" he may drive his car on shabbat. each to his own belief.
Yaacov said:Well there is not tradition here... starting a car IS lighting a fire. That's how a car works.
Haven't you guys ever gone camping??? If you have, you know that KINDLING a fire is a heck of a lot more laborious than starting a car. Starting a working modern car is no work at all, no worse than turning a doorknob, kindling a fire is a ton of work, especially if there be any hint of dampness. Any of you who use electricity on Shabbat are using a fire, but it is NOT a kindled fire, it is a perpetually burning fire at the coal based power plant, nobody there is kindling a fire, they are only STOKING it. The coal fire heats steam and the steam drives the turbines turning the generators and that produces the "fire" of electricity. So you are powering your phones and computers by fire albeit indirectly. There is no prohibition against stoking a fire on Shabbat, only a prohibition against kindling a fire. (Athough someone getting paid for stoking a fire on Shabbat is in violation for getting paid for it-- unless on salary, but who if any of you shuts off the main circuit breaker at dark on friday evening?) An electrical spark is an element of fire, ancient cultures viewed electrical phenomenon as a type of fire. When you start a car or have an electronic ignition gas stove, that is simply transferring one "fire" to ignite another, but it is NOT kindling. If anyone wants to condemn anyone for turning on a gas stove (to heat up something), then to be logically consistent, that person must also condemn him/herself for using electricity that comes from the power plant generated by the generator, turned by the turbines, moved by the steam, heated by coal fire, stoked by the coal technician-- all based on the erroneous assumption that stoke=kindle.
If you really want to split hairs on it, the argument could be made that a gas stove with a pilot light instead of a electronic ignition is more righteous, because it does not need any of the electrical "fire" from the power plant, and it does not start a fire, but only increases (or stokes) the already burning fire of the pilot ligh. But hey,regardless if it's electronic or piloted, it's the same amount of non-work as turning on your computer.
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Permalink Reply by Yaacov on
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digesting food is transforming matter from one state to another: food --> excrement.
Wiping one's bottom after defecating is work in terms of physics. Anyone abstain from that? Please do not come into the house.
By the way, cars do not burn liquid fuel, it is first vaporized with a fuel injector and then mixed with air before being ignited (not kindled).
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Permalink Reply by Joe L. Henderson on -
Precisely.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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yacov says "digesting food is transforming matter from one state to another: food --> excrement."
metabolism is biological operation in man: it is not external to him and it doesn't rely in his volition: it is not counted as work. yacov's body continues to metabolize whether he decides to or not, whether he drives a car or not, and whether he wipes his bottom after defecating or no THERE IS big difference between actions that depend upon our "free will" and those that do not: to the former some are forbidden in certain time; to the latter it behooves to the Law of Nature of which G-d is the author.
yacov says, "Anyone abstain from that?"
when did G-d hold man responsible for things he cannot decide? name your quote right now. don't be hypocrite.
yacov says, " By the way, cars do not burn liquid fuel, it is first vaporized with a fuel injector and then mixed with air before being ignited (not kindled)."
wrong. if i was your professor I'd flunk you in your Physics. What is vapor? now you realize that is contains liquid and gas: take away that combustible element (liquid) from the vapor and it requires another process to produce combustion. hypocrites are easily caught in their pretensions.
as i have said: go drive your car on Shabbat: you are not an orthodox jew why should you bind your self into our halachot? you can establish your own beyt din, create your own halacha, no one forbids you: but do not argue over orthodox matters against an orthodox: things you do not understand.
and if you don't wipe your bottom.... please don't go out, your own people will stone you.
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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on
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joe,
precisely what? you don't wipe your bottom as yacov does?
Joe L. Henderson said:Precisely.
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