1 Corinthians 15:29 - any ideas on this one?

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 22, 2012 at 10:32pm

And if not, what will those who are immersed do for the dead, if the dead do not rise?
Why are they immersed for the dead?
(1Cor. 15:29 HRV)

Many Christians do not know, but in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity. The ritual only makes sense in light of the doctrine of the resurrection, which is why Paul poses his rhetorical question above.

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Permalink Reply by 命 on April 22, 2012 at 10:53pm

What I understand from the commentary of others on this passage is that Paul is probably commenting on an erroneous / heretical practice among the Corinthians.
The emphasis of his first letter to the Corinthian congregation is that Christ is indeed risen, and whereas some were denying it, they were still performing baptisms for the dead; so he is pointing out the futility of performing baptisms for the dead while simultaneously denying the resurrection (of Christ and by extension everybody.)
So Paul is saying, "your baptisms for the dead are not only wrong, but especially wrong in that you perform them while denying that Christ is risen."

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Permalink Reply by James Trimm on April 22, 2012 at 11:04pm

It makes perfect sense from a Jewish perspective.  As I said in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity.  With that in mind, Paul's meaning is obvious. 

This is like someone not familiar with American culture proposing some odd meaning to the phrase "red, white and blue" but anyone with a knowledge of American culture will immediately know without question that it refers to the colors of the American flag.

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Permalink Reply by 命 on April 22, 2012 at 11:09pm

Is the body really "baptized" (wholly immersed in water) ? Is the word "baptized" ever used to describe this ritual you refer to ?
Becuase what you describe seems to be completely different from baptism, in that baptism is a ritual symbolizing spiritual conversion and regeneration, something the dead are unable to do; yet corpses (having no consciousness) are still entitled to dignity as you say. However, I don't think your explanation really explains 1 Cor. 15, a chapter dealing with errors among the Corinthians stemming from their misunderstanding of the resurrection.
Moreover, the Corinthians likely would not have been practicing such Jewish rites for the dead, being Greeks unfamiliar with such things; your explanation requires the Apostles having taught them such rites to begin with.

All, or at least most, cultures treat corpses with respect, without invoking a resurrection.
Not that the Bible teaches we will be walking around in our old corpses again after the resurrection, or that God is unable to recreate the body of person who has been cremated....

James Trimm said:

It makes perfect sense from a Jewish perspective.  As I said in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity.  With that in mind, Paul's meaning is obvious. 

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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on April 28, 2012 at 10:41am

 

i think Paul here points to ritual bath of dead (corpse).

--he, Paul, as a Jew knows that fact, and being pharisee he should have held resurrection as matter of doctrine;

--the term "entitled" is the clue to that practice; that is, such favor should be given for it is assumed he would have asked if the dead was to speak.

--the old thought about resurrection relied on many qualities specified in torah taharoth

but since i am not familiar of Greek original i cannot say anything beyond this.

beryl

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Permalink Reply by Mikha El on April 28, 2012 at 11:46am

There are 4 total reasons for immersion given in scripture, aside from the one you mention.

Solomon Avar said:

Is the body really "baptized" (wholly immersed in water) ? Is the word "baptized" ever used to describe this ritual you refer to ?
Becuase what you describe seems to be completely different from baptism, in that baptism is a ritual symbolizing spiritual conversion and regeneration, something the dead are unable to do; yet corpses (having no consciousness) are still entitled to dignity as you say. However, I don't think your explanation really explains 1 Cor. 15, a chapter dealing with errors among the Corinthians stemming from their misunderstanding of the resurrection.
Moreover, the Corinthians likely would not have been practicing such Jewish rites for the dead, being Greeks unfamiliar with such things; your explanation requires the Apostles having taught them such rites to begin with.

All, or at least most, cultures treat corpses with respect, without invoking a resurrection.
Not that the Bible teaches we will be walking around in our old corpses again after the resurrection, or that God is unable to recreate the body of person who has been cremated....

James Trimm said:

It makes perfect sense from a Jewish perspective.  As I said in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity.  With that in mind, Paul's meaning is obvious. 

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Permalink Reply by 命 on April 28, 2012 at 1:58pm

None of the reasons apply to the dead, and nowhere is water-immersion for the dead condoned.

Indeed, the only reason Mormons insist on the practice is because they think baptism is a prerequisite for salvation, according to the popular Catholic/Protestant heresy.

What is sad is that many Mormons are probably being possessed by the spirits of demons in the process of opening themselves up for the dead.

mikha El said:

There are 4 total reasons for immersion given in scripture, aside from the one you mention.

Solomon Avar said:

Is the body really "baptized" (wholly immersed in water) ? Is the word "baptized" ever used to describe this ritual you refer to ?
Becuase what you describe seems to be completely different from baptism, in that baptism is a ritual symbolizing spiritual conversion and regeneration, something the dead are unable to do; yet corpses (having no consciousness) are still entitled to dignity as you say. However, I don't think your explanation really explains 1 Cor. 15, a chapter dealing with errors among the Corinthians stemming from their misunderstanding of the resurrection.
Moreover, the Corinthians likely would not have been practicing such Jewish rites for the dead, being Greeks unfamiliar with such things; your explanation requires the Apostles having taught them such rites to begin with.

All, or at least most, cultures treat corpses with respect, without invoking a resurrection.
Not that the Bible teaches we will be walking around in our old corpses again after the resurrection, or that God is unable to recreate the body of person who has been cremated....

James Trimm said:

It makes perfect sense from a Jewish perspective.  As I said in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity.  With that in mind, Paul's meaning is obvious. 

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Permalink Reply by Luis R. Santos on July 9, 2012 at 4:11pm

With all due respect to your answer James.  I would like to offer a nuance to your comment.

I agree with you that the body of the deceased were washed (an act of faith by those that believed in the resurrection), but I am not aware of any source that documents the practice as an immersion.

In my opinion this immersion is a reference to Numbers 19, and is for the ritual cleansing of living that partook in the washing of the dead.

James Trimm said:

And if not, what will those who are immersed do for the dead, if the dead do not rise?
Why are they immersed for the dead?
(1Cor. 15:29 HRV)

Many Christians do not know, but in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity. The ritual only makes sense in light of the doctrine of the resurrection, which is why Paul poses his rhetorical question above.

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Permalink Reply by beryl etanah on July 12, 2012 at 12:04pm

 

nice thought Luis.

 

Luis R. Santos said:

With all due respect to your answer James.  I would like to offer a nuance to your comment.

I agree with you that the body of the deceased were washed (an act of faith by those that believed in the resurrection), but I am not aware of any source that documents the practice as an immersion.

In my opinion this immersion is a reference to Numbers 19, and is for the ritual cleansing of living that partook in the washing of the dead.

James Trimm said:

And if not, what will those who are immersed do for the dead, if the dead do not rise?
Why are they immersed for the dead?
(1Cor. 15:29 HRV)

Many Christians do not know, but in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity. The ritual only makes sense in light of the doctrine of the resurrection, which is why Paul poses his rhetorical question above.

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Permalink Reply by Luis R. Santos on July 12, 2012 at 6:13pm

Hi Beryl,

I'm actually working on a short paper on this and was looking for honest critique.  If you would like a copy email me LRSantos@StrategicManagementCG.com  and i'll send you my Alpha draft version for your review. 

beryl etanah said:

 

nice thought Luis.

 

Luis R. Santos said:

With all due respect to your answer James.  I would like to offer a nuance to your comment.

I agree with you that the body of the deceased were washed (an act of faith by those that believed in the resurrection), but I am not aware of any source that documents the practice as an immersion.

In my opinion this immersion is a reference to Numbers 19, and is for the ritual cleansing of living that partook in the washing of the dead.

James Trimm said:

And if not, what will those who are immersed do for the dead, if the dead do not rise?
Why are they immersed for the dead?
(1Cor. 15:29 HRV)

Many Christians do not know, but in Judaism we have a ritual in which a body is washed (baptized/immersed) for ritual purity after death, because even the dead are entitled to ritual purity. The ritual only makes sense in light of the doctrine of the resurrection, which is why Paul poses his rhetorical question above.

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Permalink Reply by ImAHebrew on July 17, 2012 at 2:50am

Shalom Erik, the Torah required that those who came into contact with the dead were to be washed/baptized.  Paul is reasoning that IF the Torah gave a way in which a defiled person could be cleansed from coming into contact with the dead, by having them wash their bodies and clothes, why else would Elohim have them do this IF there is no ultimate Spiritual cleansing from death...the Resurrection.  The Torah is a shadow, it is a literal picture of the Spiritual, and the shadow or picture of the ritual which cleansed from the literal defilement of death, proves that there will be a Resurrection.  Life cleanses from death, and Paul's argument is why would a process be instituted by Elohim for a literal cleansing from the defilement of death through or by washing/baptizing, if there is no Spiritual cleansing from death's defilement...the Resurrection.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Permalink Reply by Luis R. Santos on July 17, 2012 at 8:36am

Well put ImAHebrew!!!!

ImAHebrew said:

Shalom Erik, the Torah required that those who came into contact with the dead were to be washed/baptized.  Paul is reasoning that IF the Torah gave a way in which a defiled person could be cleansed from coming into contact with the dead, by having them wash their bodies and clothes, why else would Elohim have them do this IF there is no ultimate Spiritual cleansing from death...the Resurrection.  The Torah is a shadow, it is a literal picture of the Spiritual, and the shadow or picture of the ritual which cleansed from the literal defilement of death, proves that there will be a Resurrection.  Life cleanses from death, and Paul's argument is why would a process be instituted by Elohim for a literal cleansing from the defilement of death through or by washing/baptizing, if there is no Spiritual cleansing from death's defilement...the Resurrection.  Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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